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2,611 bytes added , 18:38, 19 August 2021

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Interviewer: Kevin Savetz

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Date: 3/4 April 2013

Kevin: I'm interested in how you guys got together. Was it some sort of

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department and they started working a little embezzlement.

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Kevin: ~~This was~~ at ~~the [inaudible 00:13:49] ?~~

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Kevin: Was this at D.E.C. or at...

David: Pardon?

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Kevin: at DEC or...

Betsy: At Creative Computing.

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David: '78. And, so, obviously we fired these two. And then the court

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finally, they determined that they had also, one of them had been

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finally, well they determined that they had also, one of them had been

involved in welfare fraud and other stuff and the court ordered

them to pay it back at the rate of, I don't know...

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David: It was some tiny amount.

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Kevin: ~~[inaudible 00:16:26]~~

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Kevin: Still paying you... [laughter and crosstalk]

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[laughter and crosstalk]

Betsy: Course they'll never pay anything.

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That's what I was afraid of. Less than a year later he was out of

business. There was no way you could compete with these big guys.

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Ziff instantly started having these receptions at PC ~~expos~~.

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I mean Ziff instantly started having these receptions at PC expo...

Betsy: They had ad reps all over the country.

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David: Ad reps, yeah. Oh my gosh. We would not have survived.

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David: Ad reps, yeah. Oh my gosh. So we would not have survived.

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Kevin: ~~Again~~, you ~~[inaudible 00:41:03]~~ .

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Kevin: So again, you timed it right.

David: Yeah. Not exactly right but yes. Wasn't bad. Wasn't bad.

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are on the market are pretty tacky and not fun. I've devised

something." We worked together with him. We finally decided, "All

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right. We'll publish this game. By the way, he's a general and

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right. We'll publish this game." By the way, he's a general and

finally retired.

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Betsy: But he's not financing his retirement with ~~[inaudible 00:54:29]~~ .

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Betsy: But he's not financing his retirement with the royalties of the game.

[laughter]

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slipping and slipping and the subscribers would be calling up and

saying, "Where's my magazine?"

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This went on. It was bi-monthly. It went on for maybe six months. I

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This went on for.. it was bi-monthly. It went on for maybe six months. I

finally wrote an editorial in which I explained to the readers

exactly what was going on. They didn't see it until it was printed.

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David: That's right, it did.

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Betsy: They never saw it. We were producing it out of ~~[inaudible 01:10:07]~~

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Betsy: They never saw it. We were producing it out of Mendham

New Jersey and printing it in eastern Pennsylvania and they never

saw it until it was too late. My tenure was cut short but I didn't

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Betsy: [laughs] I probably wouldn't have gotten fired if they had.

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David: That was the straw that broke the ~~camera~~'s back.

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David: That was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back.

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Betsy: But then John ~~[inaudible 01:11:05]~~ kept doing it a little bit.

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Betsy: But then John Jainschigg kept doing it a little bit.

David: I know. In a lot of cases, particularly with the games magazine,

they wanted to approve everything that went in it. If you do an

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objective product review, you call it like it is. Oh m gosh, there

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objective product review, you call it like it is. Oh my gosh, there

was one, it wasn't just one product but a roundup after Consumer

Electronics' show, and I don't remember what it was. Atari had

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[laughs] It doesn't pay off to take that approach. I didn't have

the same emotional connection, with that as I did with Creative

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Computing and the other magazines there. ~~Fine~~, you do what you want

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Computing and the other magazines there. But it, fine, you do what

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with the magazine, it's OK.

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you want with the magazine, it's OK.

Kevin: You didn't care too much?

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David: Nah.

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Kevin: ~~What~~ do you guys do now? It seems like charity work and [inaudible

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Kevin: So, what do you guys do now? It seems like charity work and [inaudible

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01:19:45] ?

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01:18:45] ?

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Betsy: Yeah. I run a non-profit called Beyond the Walls and he runs his

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Betsy: Yeah. I run a non-profit called Beyond the Walls, and he runs his

website and does Bible studies.

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three weeks this summer, I'll have 135 over three weeks this

summer.

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It started in our backyard and one of the reasons that we wanted

to...It started in the church and we started the organization

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to people. If you say "Oh I'm going to Guatemala." "Oh I'd love to

go with you! Who's going?" "It's my church." "Oh."

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But, if it's this local non-profit it's more appealing and we've

really succeeded in doing that because we have people not only from

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David: You got the Virginia.

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Betsy: Virginia. It's like oh my goodness~~. How~~ is this happening?

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Betsy: Virginia. It's like oh my goodness, how is this happening?

Kevin: And everyone goes out to Guatemala and does the [inaudible

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[laughter]

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Betsy: It's small potatoes compared to...

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Betsy: It's small potatoes compared to, say...

[crosstalk]

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David: Yeah, but in six, seven years...

Betsy: As my boss, the Chairman of the Board, and I'm the only employee,

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David: We were trying to maybe see if we can touch base with the Gates

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Foundation when we were up there. [laughs]

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Foundation when we were up there. Of course... [laughs]

Betsy: We got a brochure into his hands.

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David: Oh, yeah. I had a picture of him that I had taken at the first

Altair convention in 1976, before he had actually made the deal

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with Altair to develop BASIC~~. He~~ had said, "I can do it," but ~~they~~

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with Altair to develop BASIC, well he had said, "I can do it," but

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hadn't signed the whole thing. I've got a picture of him as a 20-

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they hadn't signed the whole thing. I've got a picture of him as

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year-old or thereabouts, talking at this little convention.

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a 20-year-old or thereabouts, talking at this little convention.

Kevin: You showed it to him?

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David: Yeah. I gave him a copy. The problem I had is that...some people

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David: Yeah. I gave him a copy of it. The problem I had is that...some

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keep everything. I pretty much give everything away.

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people keep everything. I pretty much give everything away.

Betsy: Oh, you are lying. You keep everything.

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Betsy: I'm sure there is.

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Kevin: ~~It is~~ a lot ~~[inaudible 01:26:33]~~ .

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Kevin: Its got a lot smaller.

David: She improves with age. Every year.

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Betsy: There was this sucking sound.

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David: And then Bill shows up and, oh my God, everybody has to go see

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David: And that wasn't even... then Bill shows up and, oh my God, everybody

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Bill.

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has to go see Bill.

Betsy: I was talking to Bob Rynett this morning, the guy who organized it,

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Betsy: Yeah, exactly. It was a cameo.

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Kevin: ~~[inaudible 01:27:52]~~ cameo there?

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Kevin: Was this your cameo there?

Betsy: Oh, yes. There I am. I was thinner then. Oh! There's Ted in his

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hat! And Peter ~~[inaudible 01:28:02] .~~ Who's that guy?

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hat! And Peter Fee! Who's that guy?

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David: Dick Heiser was at the convention and he had one of the hats~~. The~~

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David: Dick Heiser was at the convention and he had one of the hats, a

Xanadu hat.

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crazy...

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~~This~~ was our building.

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Oh, and this was our building.

David: That was the greenhouse garage building that we started. [laughs]

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with the service the readers were getting. And so we decided to

bring it in it house, and we brought a program from a company in

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Boston that had written a program to run a ~~PDP11~~.

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Boston that had written a program to run a PDP-11.

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And we did we brought the whole thing in-house. We had our own data

entry people. Did all the caging, taking the money out in-house.

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David: You know we were real pioneers there and we did spent some money.

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Because ~~PDP1170~~ was not a low-end, with a platter and disk, 12

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Because PDP-11/70 was not a low-end, with a platter and disk, 12

inch, maybe 15 inch, but a big, big platter drive, and data entry

terminals, DECWriters, VT05. And when Ziff came in, I mean they

were blown away that we were doing our own fulfillment, and doing a

very efficiently.

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And the other thing we were doing also was the reader service

cards. We were doing all our own processing of that. The same

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Betsy: Mini data was the one you were using...

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[Day 2]

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Kevin: OK let's go, let me grab a pen.

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David: One of the corrections, Betsy remembered better than I. the

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David: One of the corrections, Betsy remembered better than I, that the

embezzlement that we were talking about was actually 79 not 78 it

doesn't make a lot of difference but was a year later. It was a

year after I had left my day job, and I was really depending upon

Creative Computing for my income and everything else. So to lose

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that was a big blow at that time.

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that was a big blow at that time. So that was...

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Kevin: So that could have ~~been the~~ end of things right there?

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Kevin: So that could have put an end to things right there?

David: Yes absolutely it could have.

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Kevin: Please, please be here. You supplement Dave's memory.

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David: Yes exactly she's very good at that.

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David: Yes exactly, she's very good at that.

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David: And you were there and have some very good stories...

[crosstalk]

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[clipped out of audio?]

Betsy: I want to know, how are you going to know how to spell things? He

used the name John Dilks. If you go to write it out, how do you

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it down. I can concentrate on the conversation, rather than taking

notes.

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[restarts]

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David: OK. One thing I thought would be kind of worthwhile...putting the

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computers -- the pre-personal computer era, which I would say would

be 1972 or so up through '75, when the first computers came out.

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~~What~~ was happening then was you had big time-sharing systems.

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−

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And what was happening then was you had big time-sharing systems.

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~~Then~~, manufacturers like DEC and HP were making smaller time-

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But then, manufacturers like DEC and HP were making smaller time-

sharing systems for terminals on a computer. Specifically, Bob

Albrecht opened up People's Computer Company down in San Carlos,

San Mateo, one of the "Sans." It was an open to the public place.

What were people going to do with computers? Well, he wrote this

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book of ~~what to do after you hit return~~, of games.

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book of What To Do After You Hit Return, of games.

Then I wrote my book, not for his center, but for people in the

east that had access to the same type of things on DEC computers.

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Those two books actually came out in '72~~. That~~ was well

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Those two books actually came out in '72, so that was well

before....There was an impetus for people to use computers. Even

though it was mini-computers and they didn't really have their own,

they did have access.

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~~That~~, I think, was an important thing because, then, when the kit

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So that, I think, was an important thing because, then, when the kit

computers first came out, which is '75, we really had the kit

computer era from '75 to around '78. That's when it primary was,

the do-it-yourself, build-it-yourself.

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~~Who~~ did those computers appeal to? It was largely people who ~~were~~

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Well who did those computers appeal to? It was largely people who

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OK with things like soldering guns~~. That~~ was largely HAM radio

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were OK with things like soldering guns and that was largely HAM radio

people. You look at "73" magazine and "Radio Electronics," those

were the ones that dragged the hardware people into the field, and

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that you could plug into the S-100 bus. There was more, but on the

other hand, you had to build it. That was really a stumbling block

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for a lot of people. Then ~~processor technology~~ with the ~~SAL~~. OK,

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for a lot of people. Then Processor Technology with the SOL. OK,

here's an S-100 bus machine, but it's all built. That was a big

leap.

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David: Yeah. Again, magazine publishing. I remember, early on, I was on a

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TV show. McNeil Lehrer Report on Public Broadcasting. Life Magazine

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TV show, McNeil Lehrer Report on Public Broadcasting. Life Magazine

was being re-launched and Time-Warner was spending a ton of money

on this re-launch. They had the publisher of Life Magazine.

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they had me. Sort of the opposite extreme.

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[clipped out of audio?]

Kevin: You're going to be covered in cat hair by the time you're here.

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Kevin: Yes. Yes. Sorry to interrupt.

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[restarts]

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David: Anyway, they were interviewing both of us. They were going to spend

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Betsy: Used.

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David: Used. Yes. We didn't want to send stuff out to a typesetter

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David: Used. Yes, yes. We didn't want to send stuff out to a typesetter

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where...what did you ~~[inaudible 00:14:22]~~ ?

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where... what did you you call it?

Betsy: It was the same thing with the fulfillment. You are sending it to a

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send it out and wait for your galleys to come back. Then you

proofread them. Then you'd send it back. Then they make the

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corrections maybe and you get it back again. So we said, well...and

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corrections, maybe, and you get it back again. So we said, well...and

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then we got this used, ~~copy graphic~~ was it?

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then we got this used, CompuGraphic was it?

David: Mm-hmm. Yep.

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Betsy: Typesetter. Found a young woman who knew typesetting and hired her.

We bought our own stat camera. We always used to have to send all

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the stats and ~~[inaudible 00:15:34]~~ out to be made.

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the stats and V-Luxes out to be made.

[crosstalk]

David: That was huge then before...

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Betsy: ~~Had~~ our own darkroom.

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Betsy: ...had our own darkroom.

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David: ...~~everything~~ was computerized publishing. Yeah. We had our own

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David: ...there was computerized publishing. Yeah. We had our own

darkroom and our own stat camera with the thing that goes over a

screen basically to make it into dots.

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Kevin: Right.

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David: To do that. To make those negatives or ~~[inaudible 00:15:56]~~ , which

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David: a...nd to do that. To make those negatives or V-Luxes, which

are the positive. That was something again. You sent it out and you

get it back.

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I said, "Oh, you know what, we got a little more type here than

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expected. We want to crop this. Well, we send it out again, and oh

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expected. We want to crop this." Well, we send it out again, and oh

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my gosh." Doing all of that in-house, but it cost money. In a

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my gosh. Doing all of that in-house, but it cost money. In a

sense, just for the hardware and capital improvements that you

needed to do that.

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but then also tried to push into things like the consumer

electronics show.

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We were the only magazine at the consumer electronics. That's a

huge, huge show. Twice a year, one in Chicago and one in Las Vegas.

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the shows. You have to experiment and do those things. We started

reporting on new developments at the consumer electronics show and

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there was some overlap with ~~Computer Inc~~ but it was mostly video

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there was some overlap with computers but it was mostly video

games. No, it didn't have a real good payoff. [laughs]

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Then there was the Boston show we went to where Betsy's feistiness

really came out. You go to those shows. I'm not talking about one

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was really in his face about come on. We're a tiny little nit. Sure

we can do it. We can carry our own stuff.

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Shelley Adelman, whose name you probably heard today, in a sense,

got his start by running these smaller shows around the country and

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small press to exhibit was one platform up in the subway under

Lincoln Center.

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Lincoln Center, of course, huge, but down one level is not shops.

There may be a few shops but it was a big, open platform. That's

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convention or world future society. Yeah, it was world future

society convention.

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They had some notable people there. I was sitting down with Alvin

Toffler in the lobby of the Colosseum and along comes over to us

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~~Isaac [inaudible 00:27:03] (ED: from context, they are talking about~~

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Isaac Asimov. What a wonderful little party. We had some coffee in

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Isaac Asimov). What a wonderful little party. We had some coffee in

the Colosseum and I said, "Isaac, can you write me an article?"

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"I got a good story from the ~~robot~~ series that hasn't been widely

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"I got a good story from the I, Robot series that hasn't been widely

used or published and you can use that." So I got an early

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contribution from ~~Isaac [inaudible 00:27:27]~~ and Alvin

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contribution from Asimov and Alvin Toffler wrote something for us.

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Toffler wrote something for us.

Anyway, got to know some interesting people at that point. Then who

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David: I don't know if you remember, we were reminded when Harry Garland

was up at the thing in Seattle. Harry Garland was one of the first

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ones to produce an independent manufactured a board, a 100 bus

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ones to produce an independent manufactured a board, a S-100 bus

board, for the Altair, and this was really early, and he called it

the TV Dazzler. It made little squares light up but he could make

lots of them light up in different colors or just a few. It was a

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silly program but people said we can do graphics on this.

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silly program but people said, whoa, we can do graphics on this.

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He eventually developed it into quite an interesting graphics tool,

I guess. People did buy the TV Dazzler for itself but the purpose

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was here's a board you could produce graphics, do some graphics. In

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was here's a board you could produce graphics, do some graphics.

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any event, that's essentially what Michael Creighton's program ~~did~~

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for the Apple. Not much.

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So in any event, that's essentially what Michael Creighton's program

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did for the Apple. Not much.

Betsy: This was not early on.

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Betsy: 1980, yeah.

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Kevin: ~~Did~~ you publish it?

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Kevin: So did you publish it?

Betsy: No. I rejected it. [laughs]

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David: I'm like we're going to reject an article from Michael Creighton?

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David: I'm like, my god, we're going to reject an article from Michael Creighton?

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Betsy: We both liked Michael Creighton as an ~~article~~.

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Betsy: We both liked Michael Creighton as an author.

David: Oh my gosh. But we did. We really did. We had standards.

Betsy: Later on, though, he wrote something. It was better. It wasn't

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great~~. He~~ did write something better and we did accept it.

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great, but he did write something better and we did accept it.

Kevin: Orson Scott Card wrote for Compute, I think. I don't know if he was

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Orson Scott Card at that point, but ~~[inaudible 00:30:00]~~ .

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Orson Scott Card yet at that point, but some flub who was writing,

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yeah. But who else?

David: We've crossed paths with some people.

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Betsy: ~~[inaudible 00:30:09]~~ was actually very nice

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Betsy: Michael Creighton was actually very nice.

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David: Yeah, 6 foot 8, big guy. He was very nice. Unfortunately, he ~~died.~~

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David: Yeah, 6 foot 8, big guy. He was a very nice guy. Unfortunately, he

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On the other end of things, early on, we really were...this was

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died On the other end of things, early on, we really were...this was

probably even before Betsy got in...kind of in the small press

underground publishing movement as much as in the legitimate big

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Betsy: When I came, we had just published the first sleek, coated paper

magazine and coated stock. In October 1978, I believe, that was

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published. That was the first ~~of the~~ coated stock. That was kind of

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published. That was the first one on coated stock. That was kind of

the bridge to legitimacy.

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David: For the first two years, ~~[inaudible 00:31:09]~~ news print and I had

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David: For the first two years, it was published on news print and I had

a little tie in with some of the small press people. I was learning

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about publishing from small press review, I got to know some of ~~the~~

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about publishing from small press review, and I got to know some of

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people who were doing successful publishing. A lot of them were

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the people who were doing successful publishing. A lot of them were

magazines and comics out of San Francisco.

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So I got to know a little bit ~~[inaudible 00:31:46]~~ and Gilbert

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So I got to know a little bit... R. Crumb and Gilbert

Shelton and Sherry Flannigan, and some of those early, Bobby

London. So anyway, one ad we ran real early on was an adaptation of

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~~Renee and~~ Robert ~~Crompton~~. Go ahead and change my thing to creative

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an add that Robert Crumb did. He said "Go ahead and change my thing

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computing. Go for it. Sherry Flannigan she did a comic strip called

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to creative computing. Go for it." Sherry Flannigan she did a comic

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Tronch and Bonnie, Tronch was a little dog and Bonnie was a little

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strip called Tronch and Bonnie, Tronch was a little dog and Bonnie

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girl and they occasionally got mixed up with a robot dog.

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was a little girl and they occasionally got mixed up with a robot dog.

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So I published that.

Kevin: Was there some sort of falling out with that person?

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major, major problem, she was involved with Gary Hallgrin and I

forget who the publisher was, McNeil, Bobby London. They were the

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Air Pirates funniest group that Disney took to task, that caused

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Air Pirates funniest group that Disney took to task, and really, oh

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the death of a lot of publishing in the underground ~~comics~~

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my god, that caused the death of a lot of publishing in the underground

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movement.

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comics movement.

Kevin: I don't understand.

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David: Disney just said, "We can't put up with this." It was an

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interesting case, because was it a copyright violation~~, not~~ really

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interesting case, because was it a copyright violation? Not really

because they were character look-a-likes, but they weren't calling

them Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck but they looked the same or very

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similar. But, it was a landmark case in underground comics~~, it~~

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similar. But, it was a landmark case in the underground comics movement

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caused a lot of them to pull back, a lot on the satire and stuff

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and it really caused a lot of them to pull back, a lot on the satire

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that they were publishing.

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and stuff that they were publishing.

Kevin: I asked about Sherry because a number of years ago when I had first

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put the ~~best~~ of ~~[inaudible 00:34:29]~~ on my website, ~~then after a~~

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put the Best of Creative Computing books on my website, they were up

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while I got an email saying, "~~Look, you~~ have to take this

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for a while, then I got an email saying, "You have to take this content,

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~~[inaudible 00:34:37]~~ ." ~~I would copyright all~~, it was just like

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these pages down... copyright violation", it was just like

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waving arms. So I took it down but it was, I thought, maybe it

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waving their arms. So I took it down but it was, I thought, maybe it

was...

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David: Well that whole copyright trademark thing, there ~~interpretation~~

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David: Well that whole copyright trademark thing, there interpretations

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that really, really strict...everything that goes on the ~~Internet~~

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that go from really, really strict...everything that goes on the

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is a public domain. Well, that is not really true either. Are you

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Internet is a public domain. Well, that is not really true either.

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making money from copyrighted material? If you are then that's a

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Are you making money from copyrighted material? If you are then

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pretty clear violation. Are you affecting the copyright ~~owners~~

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that's a pretty clear violation. Are you affecting the copyright

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ability to make money with it? That's a violation.

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owner's ability to make money with it? That's a violation.

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I'm kind of in this right now with ~~Uruguay~~ and TinTin, those books

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I'm kind of in this right now with Hergé and TinTin, those books

have inspired a lot of people to make parodies and fake TinTin

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covers. TinTin at the beach, places TinTin wouldn't normally go.

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covers, you know, TinTin at the beach, you know, places TinTin

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Well is it affecting the sales of TinTin books, or is it actually

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wouldn't normally go. Well is it affecting the sales of TinTin books,

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~~increasingly~~ them?

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or is it actually increasing them?

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Casterman, who owns and ~~[inaudible 00:36:07] owns~~ the TinTin

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Casterman, who owns, and Mulenard, own the TinTin copyrights.

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~~copyrights.~~ They are really going after some of these people, but

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They are really going after some of these people, but I'm not

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I'm not sure that they have a really good case. So some people take

+

sure that they have a really good case. So some people take

−

everything off and ~~don't~~ want nothing on the website. And others

+

everything off and want nothing on the website. And others

are saying, "Hey, this is legitimate." I have collected a lot of

those covers, and put them up on a website.

Line 2,078: Line 2,105:

David: I think that they have to demonstrate that it's hurting them in

some way. One last thing, from the question you asked yesterday,

−

back to the money issue, when I sold the magazine, right at that

+

back to the money issue, where does the money go, well when I

−

time I took 15 percent of what I had received, and donated it to

+

sold the magazine, right at that time I took 15 percent of what

−

charities. I have in a sense signed on, although not as an official

+

I had received, and donated it to charities. I have in a sense

−

signee to the Gates-Buffet initiative to give away half of my

+

signed on, although not as an official signee, to the Gates-Buffet

−

wealth, while I am alive.

+

initiative to give away half of my wealth, while I am alive.

+

At one point in time you can compute that, I have already given

−

away more than I have received for Creative Computing to ~~Charity~~.

+

away more than I have received for Creative Computing to charity.

Of course, it had grown a little bit and we made reasonably decent

−

investments and ~~that is why~~ it ~~continued~~ to grow. But, I'm really

+

investments and it continues to grow. But, I'm really committed

−

~~committed~~ to doing that. My kids are not going to inherit it all.

+

to doing that. My kids are not going to inherit it all. That's just

−

That's just the way it is, ~~that is~~ the way I believe. Put my money

+

the way it is, the way I believe. Put my money where my heart is.

−

where my heart is. Anyway,

+

Anyway,

−

Kevin: ~~Other~~ question is, you said something yesterday, I should follow up

+

Kevin: I have a question for you Betsy, you said something yesterday,

−

that one. You said something about stealing ~~Basic~~.

+

I should follow up that one. You said something about stealing BASIC.

Betsy: Well there was this big thing. Just the night before last, at this

Line 2,106: Line 2,134:

incidents and things from the past.

−

Kevin: Did you get to ~~sell the~~ story to this group of...?

+

Kevin: Did you get to tell a story to this group of...?

−

David: Not really, I ~~was~~ just followed up on something ~~[inaudible~~

+

David: Not really, I just followed up on something Nolan Bushnell said.

−

~~00:39:24]~~ .

Betsy: Some of those stories were really boring.

[crosstalk]

−

David: Oh yeah, long and boring. It's an interesting thing though, about

+

David: Oh yeah, long and boring.

−

basic itself, ~~but~~ it was developed at an educational institution

+

−

originally by Kemeny and Kurtz at Dartmouth. And they, either

+

Betsy: Way too long.

−

deliberately or because they had gotten a lot of grant money from

+

−

General Electric in the early time sharing systems, they basically

+

David: It's an interesting thing though, about basic itself, because, well

−

let anybody use their Basic.

+

it was developed at an educational institution originally by Kemeny

−

It was developed at Dartmouth but later Honeywell put a system in

+

and Kurtz at Dartmouth. And they, either deliberately or because they

−

at Minnesota or Florida or someplace else. They could use Basic,

+

had gotten a lot of grant money from General Electric in the early time

−

they could have a no license fee or anything. That made Basic a

+

sharing systems, they basically let anybody use their Basic.

−

universal language that was available, at least that version of

+

−

Basic. If you write a different version of Basic, where does that

+

So it was developed at Dartmouth but if GE, or later Ge/Honeywell,

+

put a system in at Minnesota or Florida or someplace else. They could

+

use Basic, they could have a no license fee or anything. That made Basic

+

a universal language that was available, at least that version of

+

Basic.

+

Well then if you write a different version of Basic, where does that

fall? These are some sort of violation and you need some

permission. And basically Kemeny and Kurtz said, "No, you don't."

+

[background noise due to cat]

+

And they allowed Basic to be used and developed by others.

Line 2,132: Line 2,168:

roughly the same time, had developed also an interactive language

called Focal. And Focal in many regards was more efficient than

−

Basic, because they were running it on ~~many computer~~ and there was

+

Basic, because they were running it on mini-computers and there was

less memory to work with. On the other hand, and this was true

−

Digital...as time went on, they said, "No, nobody can use Focal. We

+

Digital...as time went on, they said, "No, no no, nobody else can use

−

are not going to let, especially those people ~~[inaudible 00:41:59]~~

+

Focal. We are not going to let, especially those people at Data General,

−

~~." But~~ any place else, nobody could use Focal.

+

but any place else, nobody could use Focal."

I think it wound up with a situation like Sony and Betamax. Sony

saying, "Betamax is ours and it is a better format that VHS," which

−

it was. But then, JVC saying, "We have VHS ~~and~~ Toshiba~~. Hey~~ do you

+

it was, it definitely was. But then, JVC saying, "We have VHS. Ok Toshiba,

−

want to use it? Fine, we'll license it to you for next to nothing."

+

hey do you want to use it? Fine, we'll license it to you for next to

+

nothing."

Kevin: You think Focal could have been Basic.

Line 2,148: Line 2,185:

have been very serious competition between the two languages, but

by Digital limiting it only to their own computers and specifically

−

to their ~~mini computers~~, not even the big mainframes, it really

+

to their minicomputers, not even the big mainframes, it really

−

limited the spread of Focal. In fact, it forced me to go out to the

+

limited the spread of Focal. In fact, it forced me, at DEC, to go

−

developers and people in educational institutions they ~~wanted~~

+

out to the developers, and people in educational institutions they

−

Basic.

+

wanted Basic.

−

There were few schools and colleges in Boston area, near DEC that

+

There were a few schools and colleges in Boston area, near DEC that

were OK with Focal. But stuff was getting published by Minnesota

−

Educational Computer Consortium and others in Basic, ~~[inaudible~~

+

Educational Computer Consortium and others in Basic, and Huntington

−

~~00:43:32] computer project~~. So they wanted Basic. [laughs] I had to

+

Computer Project. So they wanted Basic. [laughs] I had to

−

go ~~on.~~ I hired one group, actually it turned out to be just an

+

go out, I hired one group, actually it turned out to be just an

−

individual guy in Brooklyn that developed a Basic for ~~4KPDP8~~. Well

+

individual guy in Brooklyn that developed a Basic for 4K PDP-8. Well

−

Basic took 3.5K, I gave you 500 words, ~~512~~ bit not even ~~the~~ 16 bit,

+

Basic took 3.5K, that gave you 500 words, 500 12 bit, not even

−

at least get 2 ~~bits~~ per...but 500 words ~~the right~~ programs. Wasn't

+

16 bit, at least get 2 bytes per... but 500 words to write programs.

−

much.

+

Wasn't much.

−

So that forced Lunar Lander and ~~[inaudible 00:44:15]~~ and some of

+

So that forced Lunar Lander and Hamurabi and some of those programs

−

~~those programs~~ actually. Some of them I imported over from Focal

+

actually. Some of them I imported over from Focal into Basic. And

−

into Basic. And then we had a machine that had 8K~~. We~~ had a

+

then we had a machine that had 8K, we had a different version of Basic

−

different version of Basic because Hewlett Packard had a machine

+

and then because Hewlett Packard had a machine that read cards, mark

−

that read cards, mark sense cards~~. We~~ had to have a different

+

sense cards, we had to have a different version of basic for that.

−

version of basic for that. Then we had a timeshare Basic. We had

+

Then we had a timeshare Basic. We had six versions of Basic, five actually

−

six versions of Basic, five actually on the ~~PDP8~~ family. It was

+

on the PDP-8 family. It was absurd, it was crazy, but well, we had to do it.

−

absurd, it was crazy, but we had to do it.

−

Kevin: I was going to ask you, the process of like...you started

+

Kevin: I was going to ask you, kind of the process of like... you started

−

saying...you interrupted yourself~~. You~~ said, "People would submit

+

saying... you interrupted yourself really, you said, "People would submit

articles and then..." I don't know what you were going to say next.

−

But ~~[inaudible 00:45:08]~~ that I wanted to ask you like just the

+

But it reminded me that I wanted to ask you like, kind of, just the

process of how the magazine got made. You got an article was,

−

~~somebody just~~ typed up or something and...

+

I assume it was typed up or something and...

Betsy: You mean the mechanics of the production?

Line 2,183: Line 2,220:

Betsy: We can receive most of the articles for the magazine came over the

−

transom. And we would get these articles and our editorial ~~system~~

+

transom. And we would get these articles and our editorial assistant

−

would log them in and pass them around to editorial staff. John

+

would log them in and pass them around to the editorial staff. John

−

Anderson and ~~Russell [inaudible 00:45:42]~~ .

+

Anderson and Russ Lockwood and...

David: Peter Fee.

Line 2,191: Line 2,228:

Betsy: Peter Fee.

−

Kevin: What does it mean over the transom?

+

Kevin: What does that mean, over the transom?

Betsy: Means they weren't solicited. Somebody in the middle of the night

−

~~jumped to know~~ [laughs] or through the mailbox. We put a little

+

dumped them overboard [laughs] or through the mailbox. We put a little

piece of paper on there and the guys would write their opinions.

Line 2,220: Line 2,257:

Once we were well established, the vast majority of them went back.

We never returned manuscripts. And they would come with piles of

−

code. A lot of them were programs and, we would decide and ~~the~~

+

code. A lot of them were programs and, then we would decide, and

−

editorial assistants job to notify the person. Then we bought all

+

then it was the editorial assistants job to notify the person.

−

rights, didn't we?

+

Then we bought all rights, didn't we?

David: Mm-hmm.

Betsy: North American Serial rights, that's what we bought for everything.

−

Then they would go into a ~~cube~~. Sometimes we would say something,

+

Then they would go into a queue. Sometimes we would say something,

"Oh, this is going to go really well with this educational

−

institute that we're doing in June," ~~Like~~ that one is for June or

+

institute that we're doing in June," so slate that one for June, or

just put it in the queue and we will see when it comes or rises to

the top or whatever.

+

The more technical editors like, John Anderson, he was our best guy

−

ever. ~~They~~ would go through the code and make sure the code worked,

+

ever... they would go through the code and make sure the code worked,

and I would edit them for content and correct them.

−

David: For English ~~and Grammar~~.

+

David: For English, for grammar.

Betsy: Yeah, with a pen and pencil. Then they would go to our typesetter.

Line 2,247: Line 2,285:

Betsy: And then, if they had screenshots or anything the art department

−

would make them into photo stats or ~~[inaudible 00:49:02]~~ . And then

+

would make them into photo stats or v-luxes. And then when it was

−

when it was time for them to go to press they would put them on

+

time for them to go to press they would put them on boards, pieces

−

boards, pieces of cardboard, white paper...

+

of cardboard, white paper...

−

Kevin: So ~~you~~ paste up?

+

Kevin: So like paste up?

Betsy: Yeah, they do the paste up and put it on there.

−

David: The boards were using non reproducing blue on its photograph. They

+

David: The boards were using non-reproducing blue on its photograph. They

had different outlines, blue defined columns, both two and three

−

column pages and upper limits and page numbers and all that kind of

+

column pages and upper limits and page numbers can go and all that kind of

stuff.

−

Kevin: We were still doing it ~~on [inaudible 00:49:43]~~ newspaper in 1990.

+

Kevin: We were still doing it in college newspaper in 1990.

[laughs]

Line 2,267: Line 2,305:

to read it to make sure there is no lines left out, particularly of

the programs. Make sure that those all still make sense. There were

−

many cases where line got left out or artists cuts off ~~a things~~ and

+

many cases where line got left out or artists cuts off the thing and

−

realizes, "Oh, I mean to cut it ~~short~~." ~~And~~ that ~~whole~~ line

+

realizes, "Oh, I mean to cut it shorter." and that little line

disappears and then you send it off to be printed and all the

−

subscribers get a little upset because ~~Startrek~~ doesn't run.

+

subscribers get a little upset because Star Trek doesn't run.

[laughs]

−

Kevin: So that sort of thing happened ~~frequently~~ or often?

+

Kevin: So that sort of thing happened infrequently, or often?

David: With typeset material, not much at all. But with program listings,

Line 2,280: Line 2,318:

end dot matrix printer. And we always encouraged people, if you're

going to submit a program, submit it in some machine-readable form.

−

~~So we~~ don't want to type them all in to make sure they work~~. Even~~

+

We don't want to type them all in to make sure they work, even

though our readers are going to have to, but we don't want to have

to do that. So send us. But even so, we might then print it off on

Line 2,297: Line 2,335:

Kevin: Personally, I know it said so much about magazine that when it

−

continued, there were just sometimes a handwritten ~~area~~ going,

+

continued, there were just sometimes a handwritten arrow going,

"Continued over here." [laughs]

Line 2,304: Line 2,342:

David: Oh, absolutely.

−

Betsy: That was a early.

+

Betsy: That was early.

Kevin: It wasn't professional, and that was awesome. It was just like,

"OK."

−

Betsy: Then what we would do, we would request when we...we would solicit

+

Betsy: Then what we would do, we would request when we... we would solicit

articles. Like if there was a new Apple peripheral that we wanted

to review, we'd get the product. Then a lot of times, our own guys

Line 2,315: Line 2,353:

have time for, or that was better suited to one of our freelancers,

we would send it out and ask for a review of it.

+

A lot of reviews came in over the transom too, but we tried to be

careful of those, that they were not either trying to justify their

Line 2,320: Line 2,359:

producing it. [laughs]

−

Kevin: Or written by the... [crosstalk]

+

Kevin: Or written by the [ED: manufacturer]... [crosstalk]

+

David: That didn't really happen.

Betsy: That really wasn't an issue at the time, it was a more innocent

Line 2,332: Line 2,373:

computer field at all I was in market research. There are a number

of biases, too, that really overwhelmingly affect all kinds of

−

market research polls or surveys. One is that people think they're

+

market research, polls, or surveys. One is that people think they're

better than they are. For example, if we were doing a poll or a

research study, we'd put a question on basically designed to show

Line 2,341: Line 2,382:

[crosstalk]

−

David: No, no~~. This was~~ way earlier. I'm talking about Proctor and Gamble

+

David: No, no, way earlier. I'm talking about Proctor and Gamble

−

products or ~~general foods~~ or that kind of thing. Anyways, the

+

products or General Foods or that kind of thing. Anyways, the

question we put on was "please rank your driving ability," and we

had from well below average, accident waiting to happen up to Mario

Line 2,348: Line 2,389:

of the population ranked themselves better than the average. Where

is your average then? Its way high.

+

The other thing, equally pervasive in a sense, is that people

wanted to justify a decision, a purchase decision. In fact, back

Line 2,361: Line 2,403:

that did own that particular car did buy another one? They're

always way lower than they those that say they would buy another

−

one. It gets more pronounced with higher prices.

+

one.

+

And it gets more pronounced with higher prices. If you've made a decision

+

to buy a high-priced car, you're going to think, "Man, I'll tell you what.

+

This Land Rover was the best car I have ever bought." And 78 percent of

+

people might say, "I'm going to buy another one." and you know what,

+

about 15 percent of the people actually do.

−

~~If you've made a decision to buy a high-priced car, you're going to~~

+

Kevin: So this gets back to the magazine because people want to justify in a

−

~~think, "I'll tell you what. This Land Rover was the best car I have~~

+

review...

−

~~ever bought." 78 percent of people might say, "I'm going to buy~~

−

~~another one." About 15 percent of the people actually do.~~

−

Kevin: So ~~[inaudible 00:56:49]~~ magazine because people want to justify a

−

review.

David: Yeah. That's exactly right. And as Betsy said, it could go the

other way, too. "I think I'm getting screwed here with this product

−

and I'm going to knock it." ~~When~~ you get reviews, in essence, over

+

and I'm going to knock it." So when you get reviews, in essence, over

the transom, they're either justifying, "This was really wonderful.

I made a great decision buying this particular product," or "I hate

Line 2,381: Line 2,424:

Kevin: Do you ever push-back from advertisers?

−

~~David~~: All the time.

+

Betsy: All the time.

Kevin: Can you tell me?

Line 2,390: Line 2,433:

objective, and not every product is perfect. Almost every product

is going to have some negative feature.

+

We would put those in and the advertisers would then go to their ad

rep and complain. Then the ad rep would come to us and say, "Why

Line 2,398: Line 2,442:

then it will reflect on your ad."

−

Kevin: Do you remember anyone ever pulling ads ~~[inaudible 00:58:39]~~ ?

+

Kevin: Do you remember anyone ever pulling ads, you know...?

Betsy: I don't, offhand. Do you?

Line 2,406: Line 2,450:

reviews. They did get more advertising than we did from some

manufacturers that liked that. I hate to name names, but Compute

−

~~Magazine~~. I don't think you'll find any negative reviews in Compute

+

magazine. I don't think you'll find any negative reviews in Compute

−

~~Magazine~~. Everything was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

+

magazine. Everything was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

−

Personal Computing, similar, very positive. "~~Gee~~ whiz" reviews on

+

Personal Computing, similar, very positive "Wow, gee whiz" reviews on

almost all the things that they saw. It just isn't that way.

−

Kevin: You have talked about ~~[inaudible 00:59:49] . We~~'ve talked briefly

+

Kevin: You have talked a lot about Creative and we've talked briefly

at least about the other magazines. Sync, the one about Timex

Sinclair. I understand the allure of publishing a magazine geared

Line 2,429: Line 2,473:

Computer World in England.

−

David: And we had an agreement that they ~~would~~ reprint materials from

+

David: And we had an agreement that they could reprint materials from

Creative Computing, which they did for a while but then they

developed their own in-house capabilities and there was enough

Line 2,435: Line 2,479:

England that we could take subscriptions.

−

Betsy: A housewife who kept ~~her dark~~ issues in her spare bathroom.

+

Betsy: A housewife who kept the back issues in her spare bathroom.

[laughs]

David: Yeah, we still know her. Hazel Greaves, Hazy. Anyway, so we were

getting enough subscriptions from England. We were sending over, I

−

don't know how they packaged them up, but they call them ~~Mbags~~, M-

+

don't know how they packaged them up, but they call them Mbox, or M-

−

bags, mail bags basically of magazines, then we ~~mail~~ them from

+

bags, mail bags basically of magazines, then we remail them from

England. So I had more of our connection with British market than

−

probably any of the other magazines, we definitely did.

+

probably any of the other magazines, well definitely did.

−

And so I get to know ~~Clarkson Clair~~ and what's going on over there.

+

And so I get to know Clive Sinclair and what's going on over there.

And then when they bring over the computer to this country and

−

Timex, my God, big outfit. They were going to market it. By that

+

Timex, I mean my God, big outfit. They were going to market it. By that

−

time you know, there was no point starting a ~~[inaudible 01:02:25]~~

+

time you know, there was no point starting a Commodore

magazine or an entire magazine. They were, Or Apple, they were

already existed. So maybe this is going to be the next big one. We

−

will be right there when they start ~~and we~~ were.

+

will be right there when they start. When they were.

−

Timex actually put, what we had simple, simple ~~sink~~ or something

+

Timex actually put, what we had simple, simple Sync or something

but it was in the package with the computer. So that was one way of

getting our subscriber base and we couldn't possibly afford to

−

advertise and do direct mailings for magazine like that. But they

+

advertise and do direct mailings for a magazine like that. But they

−

were in ~~essence~~ helping us ~~go on~~. So that's why ~~it is~~ pretty

+

were, in a sense, helping us get going. So that's why. It was pretty

−

successful actually. ~~Often, we~~ were making money on ~~the~~ magazine

+

successful actually. We were making money on that magazine

mainly because we didn't have to promote it.

If we had to get subscriptions, we could not have possibly made it

work. There wasn't enough advertising really. I don't know what the

−

~~issue~~ here was, but it was not as good as we would have liked it.

+

ratio here was, but it was not as good as we would have liked it.

The magazine would have been tiny if we maintained the same

advertising to edit ratio we would have liked. But we didn't lose

−

money ~~out of~~ it but we didn't make anything ~~out of~~ it either. I

+

money on it but we didn't make anything on it either. I

−

think it was a ~~breakeven~~ proposition.

+

think it was a break-even proposition.

−

Kevin: OK. Microsystems. ~~[inaudible 01:04:09]~~ .

+

Kevin: OK. Microsystems. I'll say I don't think I know anything about it,

+

but it was on the list.

−

David: I said there was a lot of early development in New Jersey and there

+

David: Microsystems... I said there was a lot of early development in

−

was a guy named Saul Libes, you will find him probably, [laughs]

+

New Jersey and there was a guy named Saul Libes, you will find him

−

who was the first president of the ~~Amature~~ Computer Group in New

+

probably, [laughs] who was the first president of the Amateur

−

Jersey. He was a Professor at ~~[inaudible 01:04:43]~~ College and he

+

Computer Group in New Jersey. He was a Professor at Trenton State

−

felt that Byte magazine started out fine but then they were

+

College, and he felt that Byte magazine started out fine but then

−

focusing more on assembled hardware and things that were ~~already~~

+

they were focusing more on assembled hardware and things that were

−

made.

+

already made.

+

So he wanted to get down on really lower level of do it yourself,

build it yourself. Microsystems was more like Byte was in the very

−

beginning, ~~focusing on~~ circuit diagram~~, this was~~ logic in PC's and

+

beginning, publishing circuit diagram with logic in PC's and

everything.

−

Betsy: ~~There~~ first name was ~~S100,~~ Microsystems

+

Betsy: The first name was S-100 Microsystems.

−

David: Yeah, ~~S100 perhaps~~ then it became Microsystems in '78 or '79. ~~When~~

+

David: Yeah, for the S-100 bus, then it became Microsystems in '78 or '79.

−

some of the others came out they started ~~[inaudible 01:05:45]~~ 6800

+

When some of the others came out they started covering the 6800

−

and ~~68,000~~ chips from Motorola. But I would say it was a really

+

and 68000 chips from Motorola. But I would say it was a really

−

techy magazine and it was one that I think probably killed that one

+

techy magazine and it was one that I think, Ziff probably killed

−

off.

+

that one off.

−

Betsy: It was dead before ~~[inaudible 01:06:05]~~ . [laughs]

+

Betsy: It was dead before before Ziff. [laughs]

David: It might have been. I don't know, but it was...

−

Betsy: ~~S100~~ bus did not survive ~~and to~~ the ~~[inaudible 01:06:12]~~ .

+

Betsy: I mean, S-100 bus did not survive into the 80's.

David: It was dead before as there was these eras and the do it yourself

−

S100 era,that was '75 to '78. Then it kind of had a downward spiral

+

S100 era, that was '75 to '78. Then it kind of had a downward spiral

of two or three years and it was gone. Well, maybe it wasn't gone

but it wasn't the same. And so Microsystems was tuned into that and

they were running hardcore stuff.

−

And the reason that Saul...we ~~reach~~ an agreement with him to

+

And the reason that Saul... we reached an agreement with him to

publish it, is basically he didn't have any real magazine

background. We thought we could do something with it. It turned out

−

not to be a good fit ~~bit~~ we published it for a while. I don't know

+

not to be a good fit, but we published it for a while. I don't know

if we made money or lost money on that. Probably it didn't make

anything. [laughs]

−

Kevin: Small ~~business computers~~ or ~~computing~~.

+

Kevin: Small Business Computers, or Computing.

David: What?

Line 2,514: Line 2,562:

Betsy: Small business computers? Who do we buy that from? I can't even

remember. You can't even remember that we had it, I can tell by the

−

look on your face

+

look on your face.

−

David: I can

+

David: I can't.

−

Betsy: That one of my ~~brothers~~...my brother was a publisher remember?

+

Betsy: That one of my brother... my brother was the publisher remember?

David: Yeah, I don't know who or where we got it.

−

Kevin: That just ~~fall~~ into ~~grave~~ or...?

+

Kevin: That just fold into Creative or...?

Betsy: Eventually, but that we post it for a while. I think is something

that somebody basically left on our door step.

−

David: Yeah

+

David: Yeah.

Betsy: I think it was kind of like a puppy on the... [laughter]

Line 2,533: Line 2,581:

David: I think it came with your brother.

−

Betsy: No, because my brother wasn't ~~into~~ publishing until after ~~clearing~~

+

Betsy: No, because my brother wasn't doing publishing until after leaving

college.

−

David: It sounded like a good idea at the time.

+

David: It sounded like a good idea at the time, but...

−

Betsy: I think we saw a future in business computing

+

Betsy: I think we saw a future in business computing.

−

David: Yeah, we did and unfortunately that was one ~~word as if they just~~

+

David: Yeah, we did, and unfortunately that was one Ziff Davis...

−

~~want~~...I mentioned yesterday that they wanted to really shift the

+

I mentioned yesterday that they wanted to really shift the

focus of Creative Computing away from home and broaden out and

shifted into the small business market. And just did not, it was an

Line 2,550: Line 2,598:

where it went.

−

David: I don't ~~know,~~ either.

+

David: I don't either.

Betsy: But I know that obviously it wasn't a huge acquisition.

Line 2,559: Line 2,607:

[laughter]

−

David: Actually, a bigger acquisition was earlier and that was ~~Rom~~

+

David: Actually, a bigger acquisition was earlier and that was ROM

−

Magazine. ~~Rom~~ was published by who?

+

Magazine. ROM was published by who? (ED: not the Atari-related

+

magazine of the early 1980s.)

Betsy: Erik Sandberg-Diment.

Line 2,571: Line 2,620:

with it. Published nine issues and a little different focus than

Creative but it really overlapped us very nicely. He had more

−

graphic stuff~~. In fact,~~ it was through him that I got to know

+

graphic stuff and it was through him that I got to know

George Baker and some of the people up there. The other guy that

did the pixelated blocks photos. You've seen those.

Line 2,582: Line 2,631:

David: Block pics. OK, he and George Baker sort of came as a package with

−

~~Rom~~, they knew of each other. We actually, I would say, four or

+

ROM, they knew of each other. We actually, for I would say, four or

−

five issues, ran ~~Rom~~ as a whole separate section and even set it on

+

five issues, ran ROM as a whole separate section and even set it on

−

the cover of Creative Computing and ~~Rom~~. ~~Then~~ it became evident...

+

the cover of Creative Computing and ROM. And then it became evident...

Betsy: I think that was because he had a whole other editorial kicking

Line 2,591: Line 2,640:

David: Yeah.

−

Betsy: We bought.

+

Betsy: That we bought.

David: Could be. And then we would just merge it in completely, but that

was a very good fit. It brought us more editorial than it did

−

subscribers. They did not have a big subscriber base~~, but~~ it was a

+

subscribers. They did not have a big subscriber base. But it was a

nice marriage in a sense.

Line 2,613: Line 2,662:

David: Yeah. There were only two that really were distributed.

−

Kevin: So I have...

+

Kevin: So now I have...

[crosstalk]

Line 2,619: Line 2,668:

David: Yeah, if you can get a hold of the third one. [laughter] I don't

−

even have that. There's a same thing on ~~Tarry-on~~. There were three

+

even have that. There's a same thing on Atarian. There were three

−

issues of ~~Tarry-on~~ that I did not keep the third issue. Oh, man.

+

issues of Atarian that I did not keep the third issue. Oh, man.

Shoot me.

Line 2,628: Line 2,677:

magazines focusing on that. Talk about magazines that were running

non-objective manufacture-provided reviews, all the others were. I,

−

maybe, convinced myself and some people at Davis that there was a

+

maybe, convinced myself and some people at Ziff Davis that there was

−

need for really objective...

+

a need for really objective...

Betsy: Ziff? Did Ziff do that?

Line 2,654: Line 2,703:

Arcade games then really were on the decline. Video arcades where

you go in and pop a quarter in, because there was so much more

−

capability in the home computers and the ~~[inaudible 01:12:55]~~ and

+

capability in the home computers and the Coleco and the Mattel

−

~~the Mattel~~ and the different home systems. They could do all ~~now~~,

+

and the different home systems. They could do all, well,

not as much, but you get a pretty darned good game that you could

take home with you and not have to pop a quarter in the slot every

time you play.

+

So arcade games were kind of on the downward spiral, so that

eliminated a lot of potential advertising. We weren't going to get

−

any advertising from ~~Nameco~~ and all of the producers of the arcade

+

any advertising from Namco and all of the producers of the arcade

games, which was, "Hey, it is advertising along with..." And the

−

other home producers of the ~~game~~, there were four or five magazines

+

other home producers of the games, there were four or five magazines

already that they were pouring money into. They didn't really want

another one.

Line 2,678: Line 2,728:

get.

−

Kevin: ~~[inaudible 01:14:28]~~ Atari ~~explored~~ and ~~Atari~~ I think we've ~~covered~~

+

Kevin: Ok, the others I have are Atari Explorer and Atarian, I think we've

−

pretty well.

+

covered pretty well.

David: Yeah.

Line 2,687: Line 2,737:

David: [laughs] Yes.

−

Kevin: So the other magazines, Byte and ~~[inaudible 01:14:45]~~ , was it

+

Kevin: So the other magazines, Byte and Kilobaud, was it rivalry?

−

~~rivalry?~~ Was it friendly competition?

+

Was it friendly competition?

David: Byte, we were in bed together. Not in bed together, but we

Line 2,716: Line 2,766:

in the same place and you're going in a hardware direction, we're

going on the software.

+

When Wayne Green threw this intrigue with his wife and everything

else, lost Byte Magazine. He was fit to be tied. "I'm going to kill

Line 2,730: Line 2,781:

early on forced him not to use the name byte at all.

−

Betsy: So it was ~~byte~~.

+

Betsy: I'm sure it was Byte.

[laughter]

Line 2,748: Line 2,799:

competition with him than in the magazine itself, because again, he

was trying to be like Byte, hardware oriented and he published 73

−

~~magazines~~ so he was basically focusing on the ham radio people, the

+

Magazine so he was basically focusing on the ham radio people, the

do it yourselfers and so on. But they started a software division.

It was pretty good. They had a lot of the same types of software

that we did on cassette tape.

+

In any event, we really had more of a head to head rivalry on the

software than in the magazine publishing. We never really had

Line 2,811: Line 2,863:

Betsy: Well they were all young guys. Some of them even still in high

school, they would play games for hours and hours and hours, long

−

after the reviews were done. It was one, self-contained thing that

+

after the reviews were done. There was one, self-contained thing that

−

played football, and they played it for hours. I had to take it

+

played football, and, man, they played it for hours. I had to take it

−

away from them. Like "don't make me be your mother"

+

away from them. Like "don't make me be your mother".

−

Kevin: Was there any drug culture at all? If you read ~~[inaudible 01:22:17]~~

+

Kevin: Was there any drug culture at all? If you read stories of Atari, if you

−

~~and he was~~ cocaine and ~~high~~ everyday ~~and popped~~...

+

were a programmer at Atari you used cocaine and pot everyday...

Betsy: Not that we knew of. [laughs]

−

David: The East coast was quite different.

+

David: The East coast was quite different than the west coast.

Betsy: No there was nothing, really. I don't think so. In fact, my client

Line 2,836: Line 2,888:

them were adaptations of stuff that almost got published in

Creative Computing, probably some of them did. Lubar is a funny

−

guy. When he left and went to work for one of the video gaming

+

guy.

+

When he left and went to work for one of the video gaming

companies, his first big successful game was "Worm Wars." You were

−

like, "Worm Wars?" [laughs]

+

like, "Worm Wars?" [laughs] Other people are fighting real serious

−

Other people are fighting real serious ~~warrior~~ and you are fighting

+

warriors and you are fighting with worms.

−

with worms. We just had a different kind of culture, a lot of fun.

+

We just had a different kind of culture, it was just a lot of fun.

−

Betsy: Jonny Anderson went to work for A ~~plus~~ in San Francisco. He was one

+

Betsy: Jonny Anderson went to work for A+ in San Francisco. He was one

of the five people killed in the San Francisco earthquake of 1986.

He was in a car and a piece of the building fell on the car. He was

Line 2,874: Line 2,929:

on every day, not really partying but playing the games and

bantering and everything else.

−

As they say, ~~at Washington,~~ a real efficient business culture.

+

−

Heck, I ~~didn't work~~ for Digital Equipment, which was still a pretty

+

As they say, it wasn't a real efficient business culture.

−

relaxed place, but AT&T which was anything but. This is as far away

+

Heck, I had worked for Digital Equipment, which was still a pretty

−

from that kind of corporate culture as you can get~~, but~~ it worked.

+

relaxed place, but AT&T which was anything but. This was as far away

+

from that kind of corporate culture as you can get. But it worked.

Didn't make a lot of money, but it worked.

−

Kevin: [inaudible 01:26:58]

+

Kevin: Yeah... [inaudible 01:26:58]

−

+

Betsy: Yeah. And I think they appreciated it because they weren't making

−

tons of money either, but they ~~were having~~ a lot of fun. They

+

tons of money either, but they had a lot of fun. They

enjoyed going to work, they really enjoyed it.

+

[section in wrong place?]

Kevin: Speaking of Kindle, I've done it but haven't told anybody yet that

best of Creative Computing too is now available on Kindle. And I

Line 2,937: Line 2,994:

book, that looks pretty identical to the first one. We will figure

out.

−

Do you ~~[inaudible 01:30:23]~~ ? ~~But~~ are you familiar with...?

+

[back to original recording]

+

Kevin: Do you read any computer magazines now? Not even read, but are you familiar with...?

Betsy: Are there any?

Line 2,948: Line 3,007:

several, which is sort of interesting that the dominant Internet

magazines come from England, but they do.

+

If I want to do something, and I haven't lately, but I wanted to

get into doing something different or interactive or something with

Line 2,954: Line 3,014:

do it in Pearl or HTML, whatever.

−

I converted all of my website, quite a while ago, to XHTML from old

+

I converted all of my website, some time ago, quite a while ago now,

−

HTML. I did not like any of the programs that generate web pages,

+

to XHTML from old HTML. I did not like any of the programs that generate

−

mainly because...Well, today its probably OK, but I felt that

+

web pages, mainly because... Well, today its probably OK, but I felt that

earlier on, they were very inefficient. You'd have this much code

for something and XHTML would write it in five lines.

+

Kevin: Yeah, using Dreamweaver or something, it was terrible. [crosstalk]

−

My old-fashioned [inaudible 01:32:23] ~~said, "You know what,~~ the

+

David: My old-fashioned [inaudible 01:32:23] the

−

interpreter or compiler or whatever, has to go through ~~a lot~~ of

+

interpreter or compiler or whatever, has to go through all of

that just to pick out what is going to be displayed." My web pages

−

are very compact and short. They are all XHTML, none of ~~that is~~

+

are very compact and short. They are all XHTML, none of this

−

extra ~~[inaudible 01:32:41]~~ style pages and everything else.

+

extra garbage and style pages and everything else.

Anyway, so that's what I'll pick up a magazine for. I'm was doing a

little bit of programming in Pearl and then I said, "No. You know

what, I can get routines that I can download and I don't have to

−

learn it myself. I learned enough to know that I don't want your

+

learn it myself." I learned enough to know that I don't want your

−

Pearl ~~program~~." [laughs] Or what is the other one? I don't know.

+

Pearl programmer. [laughs] Or what is the other one? I don't know.

I'm right at the point now where I'm wanting to do some more things

that I can't, so I'll probably purchase some more computer

Line 2,988: Line 3,050:

Francisco.

−

Kevin: PC ~~magazine.~~

+

Kevin: PC Magazine?

Betsy: PC Magazine, right. And, there was a guy named Tony Gold and there

was somebody else that I can't remember. There was Tony Gold and

−

this Mr. X started this magazine and they hired...David Banell will

+

this Mr. X started this magazine and they hired... David Banell will

−

probably tell ~~you all~~, I don't know all the details but I'm sure he

+

probably tell the real story, I don't know all the details but I'm sure

−

has it engraved in his brain.

+

he has it engraved in his brain.

+

They hired David Banell to run it and I guess several other people,

and my understanding is, that they told them they were going to

Line 3,012: Line 3,075:

out and went across town and started PC World. Apparently their

lawyers said, "Don't take anything with you." So they just walked

−

out and left the offices as they were, ~~and~~ Ziff, who now had a

+

out and left the offices as they were, And Ziff, who now had a

magazine to get out and no one to do it, sent me out to San

Francisco for a couple of weeks and there was like an editorial

assistant and a couple of freelance writers, were the only people

−

left.

+

left. So I had to figure out...

Kevin: So this is when you became the interim.

Line 3,023: Line 3,086:

went out there and walked into this office and had to pull together

their issue and get it off to the printer. They had a big dummy on

−

the wall where ~~everthing~~...

+

the wall where everything...

−

Kevin: They lay all the...

+

Kevin: They lay all the pages...

−

Betsy: ~~They~~ lay all the ~~impositions~~ where all the pages and the stories

+

Betsy: The lay out of all the positions where all the pages and the stories

were going to go and they moved everything around. [laughs] But

they couldn't resist.

Line 3,040: Line 3,103:

hired Barry Owen, he moved to New York and he eventually become the

editor, because that was who they had.

+

I was sort of the editorial director for a while and they said

that, "If you were going to do this, you would have to come to the

city. We are going to really set up an office here and make it

−

real." And I said, "No, I am not going to drive into the city every

+

real." And I said, "Nah, I am not going to drive into the city every

day or take the train or the bus or anything." It was a interesting

story and we were getting much more interesting version of it from

−

David ~~Barnell~~, who was there. [laughs]

+

David Bunnell, who was there. [laughs]

And in the mean time, they were all starting up PC World and taking

Line 3,052: Line 3,116:

possible for PC. That was a big rivalry, obviously.

−

David: And then it created a couple of months of problems at ~~creative~~ too,

+

David: And then it created a couple of months of problems at Creative too,

because my editor was gone. I had really gotten very dependent to

−

rely on her for so many things. "I got to edit this myself." And

+

rely on her for so many things. "I got to edit this myself?" And

−

then the whole question mark was, OK if PC ~~magazine~~, is ~~she can~~

+

then the whole question mark was, OK if PC Magazine, is Betsy goint

−

stay with it. It was a time of uncertainty.

+

to stay with it? It was a time of uncertainty.

Betsy: I'm sure it was a bad career move.

−

Kevin: Yeah. But PC ~~magazine~~ still ~~exist~~.

+

Kevin: Yeah. But PC Magazine still exists and Creative Computing doesn't.

−

Betsy: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if I would have existed if I had to

+

Betsy: Yeah, exactly. But I don't know if I would have existed if I had to

commute to New York, that's a nasty commute. Millions of people do

it but, I just didn't want to be one of them. I didn't mean to

−

interrupt, so back to ~~you~~.

+

interrupt, so back to your...

−

Kevin: What are you most proud of, or everything you ~~have~~ done?

+

Kevin: What are you most proud of, of everything you've done? What's the

+

thing you want on your tombstone?

−

David: OK, that's obviously not a one word answer. Proud ~~is,~~ I am not

+

David: OK, that's obviously not a one word answer. Proud isn't... I am not

crazy about it. I guess the fact that I continued to hear from

people that said, "Hey, I got my start in computing from Basic

−

~~computer games~~ or Creative Computing," or something that I had my

+

Computer Games" or Creative Computing, or something that I had my

hand in, that makes me feel pretty good.

−

You have a long term, or longer term influence ~~that~~ just what you

+

−

do at the time, it's living on. It's ~~not living~~ on forever. Basic

+

You have a long term, or longer term influence than just what you

+

do at the time, it's living on. It's no going to live on forever. Basic

isn't going to live on forever. But I think the idea that having

some positive influence on other people, on their lives, on their

careers, that's a good.

−

Kevin: You helped send people into the computer ~~science~~ field.

+

Kevin: You helped send people into the computer sciences field.

David: And you know the specific individual accomplishments. Yeah, I wrote

Line 3,086: Line 3,152:

program but the routines, are still in use. That's minor compared

to having an influence on people and their career and their

−

outlook, their future. That's way more important. "OK so I wrote a

+

outlook, and their future. That's way more important. "OK so I wrote a

−

great algorithm, so what."

+

great scheduling algorithm, so what."

Kevin: And you really think it's the same algorithm that's being used in

Line 3,106: Line 3,172:

[cross talk]

−

David: Yeah. Well, ~~[inaudible 01:42:31]~~ was mentioning that at breakfast,

+

David: Yeah. Well, you know, Lee Felsenstein was mentioning that at breakfast,

−

oh gosh that was just yesterday.

+

oh gosh, that was just yesterday.

[laughter]

−

Betsy: It was yesterday [laughs] .

+

Betsy: It was yesterday. [laughs]

David: [laughs] That kids today don't have any feeling about, or I should

Line 3,123: Line 3,189:

into schools today? No. So anyway, it's just kind of, hopefully

there's been some long term influence.

+

And what I'm doing now even, which is mainly developing bible

−

studies for...well, I mostly have guys that have had a drug or

+

studies for... well, I mostly have guys that have had a drug or

alcohol addiction problem coming to this. They're in a rescue

mission. I'm hoping that these studies can have a little bit of an

Line 3,133: Line 3,200:

[pause]

+

[not in recording]

Those are terrible copies.

Line 3,141: Line 3,209:

David: There's Carl.

[pause]

+

[back to recording]

Kevin: Do have anything left, like how many subscribers you had over time?

−

Is that data around anymore? ~~How~~ many newsstand copies you had? I

+

Is that data around anymore? Or how many newsstand copies you had? I

assume that is a lot.

Line 3,150: Line 3,220:

three magazines that they expected to continue to publish, PC,

Apple's A+, or Mac User.

+

I'm guessing that most people went with PC. One of the reasons

actually was Ziff's rationale at that point was, PC World had

Line 3,173: Line 3,244:

David: Then they started publishing it twice a month. The nudge that the

−

subscriber base at Creative, gave to PC really, separated them

+

subscriber base at Creative gave to PC really separated them

−

completely from PC World. ~~They~~ had their reasons.

+

completely from PC World. So they had their reasons.

Kevin: OK. This is a chart of the page count of Creative Computing over

Line 3,189: Line 3,260:

David: They weren't promoting, no subscription promotion. They were saving

−

their money. If you don't promote the subscriptions, you're not

+

their money.

−

going to get them.

+

Kevin: Sure.

+

David: If you don't promote the subscriptions, you're not going to get them.

Betsy: This is page count.

Line 3,201: Line 3,275:

Kevin: I just thought I'd do a comparison, even though that's not really

−

what I'm doing here. In the beginning, you guys were bimonthly and

+

what I'm doing here.

−

~~they were~~ monthly. I couldn't know how to do it accurately. Their

+

In the beginning, you guys were bimonthly and they [Kilobyte] were

+

monthly. I couldn't know how to do it accurately. Their

page count's actually higher, because they were doing twice as

much. I don't have all the data here. You guys tended to publish

Line 3,213: Line 3,289:

editorial content.

−

Betsy: ~~[inaudible 01:50:02]~~ , a good example.

+

Betsy: Computer Shopper, yeah, a good example.

−

David: That's exactly right. Even ~~what~~ the guys that bought Military

+

David: That's exactly right. Even the guys that bought Military

−

Vehicles, they just went over so heavily to...I always believe that

+

Vehicles, they just went over so heavily to... I always believe that

you should have at least one-third editorial content, preferably

more. They dropped down to 20 percent to edit.

Line 3,237: Line 3,313:

in really. You've got the IBM PC, and everybody's producing a PC

clone. Apple kept going, and Atari, and Commodore attempted to.

−

If you were to start a computer company at that point, with a new

+

But yeah, if you were to start a computer company at that point,

−

computer, yeah, you'd need something to give your user ~~base~~

+

with a new computer, yeah, you'd need something to give your user

−

something to do with it, more than just what the manufacturer ~~was~~

+

base something to do with it, more than just what the manufacturer

−

selling. So, that's probably accurate. What do you think?

+

was selling. So, that's probably accurate. What do you think?

Betsy: Yeah, I think it's accurate. That's what people started to expect.

−

Kevin: Yeah. Another ~~chord of~~ the same issue which we've kind of touched

+

Kevin: Yeah. Another quote in the same issue which we've kind of touched

−

on from Tom Dwyer~~. This~~ is in 1984~~. He~~'s saying, "Computer

+

on from Tom Dwyer, this is in 1984, he's saying, "Computer

magazines used to have personality [laughter] and now they don't."

Now, they really don't.

Line 3,260: Line 3,336:

David: Tom Dwyer? He was at University of Pittsburgh. He came up with all

−

those neat applications. He and Margo...He had the best ~~basic~~

+

those neat applications. He and Margo... He had the best BASIC

primer of anybody, in fact the only one that both Kemeny and Kurtz

endorsed outside of their own material. He had really written some

−

good ~~Basic~~ books.

+

good BASIC books.

Kevin: I'm just finishing up here. The Internet says you were born in

Line 3,302: Line 3,378:

Betsy: I tried keeping this professional thing and it was just way too

confusing, since that really wasn't my name anyway. That was my

−

first husband's name, and then just...this is way too complicated.

+

first husband's name, and then just... "this is way too complicated."

Kevin: My wife kept her maiden name and now she wishes she hadn't. It's

Line 3,316: Line 3,392:

Betsy: You the most prepared interviewer ever.

+

[not in recording]

David: I jotted down a couple of notes. Nope.

Betsy: Got everything?

+

[back to recording]

David: What's your thinking? Because originally you were talking to me

Line 3,338: Line 3,416:

Betsy: That's true. We asked Carl Helmers if Wayne was still alive and he

−

was ~~[inaudible 01:56:06]~~ .

+

was "huh, dunno".

David: Actually, there was another guy up there that published a computer

Line 3,347: Line 3,425:

David: Up in New Hampshire, Peterborough. It was one of the earlier would-

be competitors to Datamation. So, it was much earlier.

+

He was absolutely totally convinced about the Kennedy assassination

and published a computer analysis of all the photos and everything

Line 3,357: Line 3,436:

it's going to seem like a compare and contrast thing." That's not

what I want to do.

+

Now I'm thinking that this will be a project about the earliest

computer magazines, the first computer magazines. That way, I can,

−

whatever, four or five chapters. One on Creative, and maybe Byte.

+

whatever, four or five chapters. One on Kilobaud, one on Creative,

−

I'm meeting with the editor of Byte in a couple of weeks at an

+

and maybe Byte I'm meeting with the editor of Byte in a couple of

−

event, maybe Interface Age or one of the other ones.

+

weeks at an event, maybe Interface Age or one of the other ones.

David: If you can find Bob Jones, that would be an interesting contrast.

Line 3,372: Line 3,452:

Betsy: Oh, Dr. Dobbs...

−

David: Jim Warren! Oh my goodness. That would give you another perspective

+

David: Oh Jim Warren! Oh my goodness. That would give you another perspective

altogether.

Line 3,384: Line 3,464:

David: Oh, boy. Did they ever! Yes, yes. Jim also was the one that started

−

the West Coast ~~computer fairs~~. He's a very capable guy. Dr. Dobb's

+

the West Coast Computer Fairs. He's a very capable guy. Dr. Dobb's

journal was in a sense, well, you've probably seen it. You have,

right? OK, so you know.

+

That's really low level programming rather than higher languages.

We're talking about machine languages, assembly language,

−

programming, and there. It was sort of like Microsystems was to

+

programming, and there.

−

Byte. Microsystems, for the really serious hardware guy. Dr. Dobbs

+

−

was for the really serious programmer, compared to Creative which

+

It was sort of like Microsystems was to Byte. Microsystems, for the

−

was for people who just wanted to type something in that would

+

really serious hardware guy. Dr. Dobbs was for the really serious

−

work.

+

programmer, compared to Creative which was for people who just wanted

+

to type something in that would work.

−

Kevin: [inaudible 01:59:35] ~~basic~~ right. Yeah.

+

Kevin: Lets play [inaudible 01:59:35] in BASIC, right. Yeah.

−

Betsy: Dr. Dobbs. That was a totally different ~~[inaudible 01:59:43]~~

+

Betsy: Dr. Dobbs. That was sort of like a totally different... it wasn't a

competitor.

Line 3,406: Line 3,488:

David: Oh yeah, actually they did, and it kept going for a long time

−

because it was a small little ~~nitch~~ magazine. But, yeah, Jim Warren

+

because it was a small little niche magazine. But, yeah, Jim Warren

−

would be an interesting guy, very interesting guy early on. I don't

+

would be an interesting guy, very interesting guy, early on. I don't

−

know about ~~Albert~~ because you say he published more tabloid

+

know about Albrecht because you say he published more tabloid

newspapers. I don't know if they ever really published any magazine

size thing or not. Probably not, but it would give me a totally

−

different perspective because they ~~are~~ coming from the west coast,

+

different perspective because they're coming from the west coast,

−

looser or whatever.

+

looser, or whatever.

Kevin: That sounded pretty loose.

Line 3,418: Line 3,500:

David: Yeah nothing compared to that.

−

Betsy: I think he was sort of in rebellion when he started working at

+

Betsy: I think he was sort of in rebellion when he started working full time

−

~~Creator~~ Computing because he was coming off of AT&T where he had to

+

at Creative Computing because he was coming off of AT&T where he had

−

wear a suit to work every day. So the first thing he did was burn

+

to wear a suit to work every day. So the first thing he did was burn

his suits and wear t-shirt and jeans way before anybody was doing

that.

David: I went extremely in the other direction, yeah I did, but who else

−

real early. Personal ~~computing~~ which I think David Barnell somehow

+

real early. Personal Computing, which I think David Barnell somehow

involved in it at some point in there. Because they moved from the

−

west coast to New Jersey, they were bought by...who was that? It

+

west coast to New Jersey, and they were bought by... who was that? It

was mostly a company that published things like hardware age and

advertiser-driven magazines. What was the name?

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David: Oh, gosh. Begins with an 'H'.

−

Betsy: Halshep

+

Betsy: Halshep?

−

David: No. Anyway, when they brought ~~personal computing~~...I think Barnell

+

David: No. Anyway, when they brought Personal Computing... I think Barnell

maybe even started it, and then they moved it to New Jersey, and

then David said "I'm not going to New Jersey. I'm a west coast

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totally advertiser driven. A press release is a product review, as

far as they were concerned.

+

They had some interesting stuff. They were a competitor only in

name, but also because they got the advertising. "I think I'm going

−

to advertise." "Oh! We're going to publish a wonderful review! Give

+

to advertise"... "Oh! We're going to publish a wonderful review! Give

−

it to us." And so they were early, and they made money. There were

+

it to us." And so they were early, and they made money.

−

a bunch of flash-in-the-pan magazines that lasted 2 or 3 or maybe 6

+

−

~~issues~~, but nobody...

+

There were a bunch of flash-in-the-pan magazines that lasted 2 or 3

+

or maybe 6 ssues, but nobody...

Kevin: But only one in seven made it, so...

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David: That's right, exactly. I can't remember the name of some of these

ones, but there was a very successful big magazine that published

−

all Apple...reviews of Apple stuff. What was that one? Apple by

+

all Apple... reviews of Apple stuff. What was that one? Apple by

themselves spawned I'd guess half a dozen magazines.

−

Kevin: ~~Inquest~~, and Insider, and Apple...a bunch of others ~~there~~.

+

Kevin: There was A+, and Insider, and Apple... a bunch of others.

David: Right. Actually, there's one that I can't think of the name of, it

turned out, it was bigger and thicker and creative. They were

publishing a lot of stuff, but again, it would all be positive and

−

so they really killed us on getting advertising. We had been a

+

so they really killed us on getting advertising. We had been a leading

publisher of Apple material for a while. Then all these others came

along. That one, whatever it was, was really took a lot of

advertising from us. I'll think about it.

+

[not in recording]

Kevin: You'll remember.

−

David: I'll remember some of this. When it all settled out, you came back

+

David: I'll remember some of this.

−

down to eight or nine, but the ones we're talking about...

+

[back to recording]

+

David: When it all settled out, you came back down to eight or nine,

+

but the ones we're talking about...

Kevin: Well, at one point there was 200.

Maury

26

edits

Changes

Dave Ahl and Betsy Ahl (view source)

Revision as of 18:38, 19 August 2021

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