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| | | |
| Interviewer: Kevin Savetz | | Interviewer: Kevin Savetz |
| + | |
| + | Date: 3/4 April 2013 |
| | | |
| Kevin: I'm interested in how you guys got together. Was it some sort of | | Kevin: I'm interested in how you guys got together. Was it some sort of |
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| department and they started working a little embezzlement. | | department and they started working a little embezzlement. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: This was at the [inaudible 00:13:49] ? | + | Kevin: Was this at D.E.C. or at... |
| | | |
| David: Pardon? | | David: Pardon? |
| + | |
| + | Kevin: at DEC or... |
| | | |
| Betsy: At Creative Computing. | | Betsy: At Creative Computing. |
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| | | |
| David: '78. And, so, obviously we fired these two. And then the court | | David: '78. And, so, obviously we fired these two. And then the court |
− | finally, they determined that they had also, one of them had been | + | finally, well they determined that they had also, one of them had been |
| involved in welfare fraud and other stuff and the court ordered | | involved in welfare fraud and other stuff and the court ordered |
| them to pay it back at the rate of, I don't know... | | them to pay it back at the rate of, I don't know... |
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| David: It was some tiny amount. | | David: It was some tiny amount. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: [inaudible 00:16:26] | + | Kevin: Still paying you... [laughter and crosstalk] |
− | [laughter and crosstalk]
| |
| | | |
| Betsy: Course they'll never pay anything. | | Betsy: Course they'll never pay anything. |
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| That's what I was afraid of. Less than a year later he was out of | | That's what I was afraid of. Less than a year later he was out of |
| business. There was no way you could compete with these big guys. | | business. There was no way you could compete with these big guys. |
− | Ziff instantly started having these receptions at PC expos. | + | I mean Ziff instantly started having these receptions at PC expo... |
| | | |
| Betsy: They had ad reps all over the country. | | Betsy: They had ad reps all over the country. |
| | | |
− | David: Ad reps, yeah. Oh my gosh. We would not have survived. | + | David: Ad reps, yeah. Oh my gosh. So we would not have survived. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Again, you [inaudible 00:41:03] . | + | Kevin: So again, you timed it right. |
| | | |
| David: Yeah. Not exactly right but yes. Wasn't bad. Wasn't bad. | | David: Yeah. Not exactly right but yes. Wasn't bad. Wasn't bad. |
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| are on the market are pretty tacky and not fun. I've devised | | are on the market are pretty tacky and not fun. I've devised |
| something." We worked together with him. We finally decided, "All | | something." We worked together with him. We finally decided, "All |
− | right. We'll publish this game. By the way, he's a general and | + | right. We'll publish this game." By the way, he's a general and |
| finally retired. | | finally retired. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: But he's not financing his retirement with [inaudible 00:54:29] . | + | Betsy: But he's not financing his retirement with the royalties of the game. |
| [laughter] | | [laughter] |
| | | |
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| slipping and slipping and the subscribers would be calling up and | | slipping and slipping and the subscribers would be calling up and |
| saying, "Where's my magazine?" | | saying, "Where's my magazine?" |
− | This went on. It was bi-monthly. It went on for maybe six months. I | + | This went on for.. it was bi-monthly. It went on for maybe six months. I |
| finally wrote an editorial in which I explained to the readers | | finally wrote an editorial in which I explained to the readers |
| exactly what was going on. They didn't see it until it was printed. | | exactly what was going on. They didn't see it until it was printed. |
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| David: That's right, it did. | | David: That's right, it did. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: They never saw it. We were producing it out of [inaudible 01:10:07] | + | Betsy: They never saw it. We were producing it out of Mendham |
| New Jersey and printing it in eastern Pennsylvania and they never | | New Jersey and printing it in eastern Pennsylvania and they never |
| saw it until it was too late. My tenure was cut short but I didn't | | saw it until it was too late. My tenure was cut short but I didn't |
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| Betsy: [laughs] I probably wouldn't have gotten fired if they had. | | Betsy: [laughs] I probably wouldn't have gotten fired if they had. |
| | | |
− | David: That was the straw that broke the camera's back. | + | David: That was kinda the straw that broke the camel's back. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: But then John [inaudible 01:11:05] kept doing it a little bit. | + | Betsy: But then John Jainschigg kept doing it a little bit. |
| | | |
| David: I know. In a lot of cases, particularly with the games magazine, | | David: I know. In a lot of cases, particularly with the games magazine, |
| they wanted to approve everything that went in it. If you do an | | they wanted to approve everything that went in it. If you do an |
− | objective product review, you call it like it is. Oh m gosh, there | + | objective product review, you call it like it is. Oh my gosh, there |
| was one, it wasn't just one product but a roundup after Consumer | | was one, it wasn't just one product but a roundup after Consumer |
| Electronics' show, and I don't remember what it was. Atari had | | Electronics' show, and I don't remember what it was. Atari had |
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| [laughs] It doesn't pay off to take that approach. I didn't have | | [laughs] It doesn't pay off to take that approach. I didn't have |
| the same emotional connection, with that as I did with Creative | | the same emotional connection, with that as I did with Creative |
− | Computing and the other magazines there. Fine, you do what you want | + | Computing and the other magazines there. But it, fine, you do what |
− | with the magazine, it's OK.
| + | you want with the magazine, it's OK. |
| | | |
| Kevin: You didn't care too much? | | Kevin: You didn't care too much? |
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| David: Nah. | | David: Nah. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: What do you guys do now? It seems like charity work and [inaudible | + | Kevin: So, what do you guys do now? It seems like charity work and [inaudible |
− | 01:19:45] ? | + | 01:18:45] ? |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Yeah. I run a non-profit called Beyond the Walls and he runs his | + | Betsy: Yeah. I run a non-profit called Beyond the Walls, and he runs his |
| website and does Bible studies. | | website and does Bible studies. |
| | | |
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| three weeks this summer, I'll have 135 over three weeks this | | three weeks this summer, I'll have 135 over three weeks this |
| summer. | | summer. |
− |
| |
| It started in our backyard and one of the reasons that we wanted | | It started in our backyard and one of the reasons that we wanted |
| to...It started in the church and we started the organization | | to...It started in the church and we started the organization |
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| to people. If you say "Oh I'm going to Guatemala." "Oh I'd love to | | to people. If you say "Oh I'm going to Guatemala." "Oh I'd love to |
| go with you! Who's going?" "It's my church." "Oh." | | go with you! Who's going?" "It's my church." "Oh." |
− |
| |
| But, if it's this local non-profit it's more appealing and we've | | But, if it's this local non-profit it's more appealing and we've |
| really succeeded in doing that because we have people not only from | | really succeeded in doing that because we have people not only from |
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| David: You got the Virginia. | | David: You got the Virginia. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Virginia. It's like oh my goodness. How is this happening? | + | Betsy: Virginia. It's like oh my goodness, how is this happening? |
| | | |
| Kevin: And everyone goes out to Guatemala and does the [inaudible | | Kevin: And everyone goes out to Guatemala and does the [inaudible |
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| [laughter] | | [laughter] |
| | | |
− | Betsy: It's small potatoes compared to... | + | Betsy: It's small potatoes compared to, say... |
| [crosstalk] | | [crosstalk] |
| + | |
| + | David: Yeah, but in six, seven years... |
| | | |
| Betsy: As my boss, the Chairman of the Board, and I'm the only employee, | | Betsy: As my boss, the Chairman of the Board, and I'm the only employee, |
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| | | |
| David: We were trying to maybe see if we can touch base with the Gates | | David: We were trying to maybe see if we can touch base with the Gates |
− | Foundation when we were up there. [laughs] | + | Foundation when we were up there. Of course... [laughs] |
| | | |
| Betsy: We got a brochure into his hands. | | Betsy: We got a brochure into his hands. |
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| David: Oh, yeah. I had a picture of him that I had taken at the first | | David: Oh, yeah. I had a picture of him that I had taken at the first |
| Altair convention in 1976, before he had actually made the deal | | Altair convention in 1976, before he had actually made the deal |
− | with Altair to develop BASIC. He had said, "I can do it," but they | + | with Altair to develop BASIC, well he had said, "I can do it," but |
− | hadn't signed the whole thing. I've got a picture of him as a 20- | + | they hadn't signed the whole thing. I've got a picture of him as |
− | year-old or thereabouts, talking at this little convention.
| + | a 20-year-old or thereabouts, talking at this little convention. |
| | | |
| Kevin: You showed it to him? | | Kevin: You showed it to him? |
| | | |
− | David: Yeah. I gave him a copy. The problem I had is that...some people | + | David: Yeah. I gave him a copy of it. The problem I had is that...some |
− | keep everything. I pretty much give everything away.
| + | people keep everything. I pretty much give everything away. |
| | | |
| Betsy: Oh, you are lying. You keep everything. | | Betsy: Oh, you are lying. You keep everything. |
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| Betsy: I'm sure there is. | | Betsy: I'm sure there is. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: It is a lot [inaudible 01:26:33] . | + | Kevin: Its got a lot smaller. |
| | | |
| David: She improves with age. Every year. | | David: She improves with age. Every year. |
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| Betsy: There was this sucking sound. | | Betsy: There was this sucking sound. |
| | | |
− | David: And then Bill shows up and, oh my God, everybody has to go see | + | David: And that wasn't even... then Bill shows up and, oh my God, everybody |
− | Bill.
| + | has to go see Bill. |
| | | |
| Betsy: I was talking to Bob Rynett this morning, the guy who organized it, | | Betsy: I was talking to Bob Rynett this morning, the guy who organized it, |
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| Betsy: Yeah, exactly. It was a cameo. | | Betsy: Yeah, exactly. It was a cameo. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: [inaudible 01:27:52] cameo there? | + | Kevin: Was this your cameo there? |
| | | |
| Betsy: Oh, yes. There I am. I was thinner then. Oh! There's Ted in his | | Betsy: Oh, yes. There I am. I was thinner then. Oh! There's Ted in his |
− | hat! And Peter [inaudible 01:28:02] . Who's that guy? | + | hat! And Peter Fee! Who's that guy? |
| | | |
− | David: Dick Heiser was at the convention and he had one of the hats. The | + | David: Dick Heiser was at the convention and he had one of the hats, a |
| Xanadu hat. | | Xanadu hat. |
| | | |
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| crazy... | | crazy... |
| | | |
− | This was our building. | + | Oh, and this was our building. |
| | | |
| David: That was the greenhouse garage building that we started. [laughs] | | David: That was the greenhouse garage building that we started. [laughs] |
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| with the service the readers were getting. And so we decided to | | with the service the readers were getting. And so we decided to |
| bring it in it house, and we brought a program from a company in | | bring it in it house, and we brought a program from a company in |
− | Boston that had written a program to run a PDP11. | + | Boston that had written a program to run a PDP-11. |
| + | |
| And we did we brought the whole thing in-house. We had our own data | | And we did we brought the whole thing in-house. We had our own data |
| entry people. Did all the caging, taking the money out in-house. | | entry people. Did all the caging, taking the money out in-house. |
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| | | |
| David: You know we were real pioneers there and we did spent some money. | | David: You know we were real pioneers there and we did spent some money. |
− | Because PDP1170 was not a low-end, with a platter and disk, 12 | + | Because PDP-11/70 was not a low-end, with a platter and disk, 12 |
| inch, maybe 15 inch, but a big, big platter drive, and data entry | | inch, maybe 15 inch, but a big, big platter drive, and data entry |
| terminals, DECWriters, VT05. And when Ziff came in, I mean they | | terminals, DECWriters, VT05. And when Ziff came in, I mean they |
| were blown away that we were doing our own fulfillment, and doing a | | were blown away that we were doing our own fulfillment, and doing a |
| very efficiently. | | very efficiently. |
| + | |
| And the other thing we were doing also was the reader service | | And the other thing we were doing also was the reader service |
| cards. We were doing all our own processing of that. The same | | cards. We were doing all our own processing of that. The same |
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| | | |
| Betsy: Mini data was the one you were using... | | Betsy: Mini data was the one you were using... |
| + | |
| | | |
| [Day 2] | | [Day 2] |
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| Kevin: OK let's go, let me grab a pen. | | Kevin: OK let's go, let me grab a pen. |
| | | |
− | David: One of the corrections, Betsy remembered better than I. the | + | David: One of the corrections, Betsy remembered better than I, that the |
| embezzlement that we were talking about was actually 79 not 78 it | | embezzlement that we were talking about was actually 79 not 78 it |
| doesn't make a lot of difference but was a year later. It was a | | doesn't make a lot of difference but was a year later. It was a |
| year after I had left my day job, and I was really depending upon | | year after I had left my day job, and I was really depending upon |
| Creative Computing for my income and everything else. So to lose | | Creative Computing for my income and everything else. So to lose |
− | that was a big blow at that time. | + | that was a big blow at that time. So that was... |
| | | |
− | Kevin: So that could have been the end of things right there? | + | Kevin: So that could have put an end to things right there? |
| | | |
| David: Yes absolutely it could have. | | David: Yes absolutely it could have. |
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| Kevin: Please, please be here. You supplement Dave's memory. | | Kevin: Please, please be here. You supplement Dave's memory. |
| | | |
− | David: Yes exactly she's very good at that. | + | David: Yes exactly, she's very good at that. |
| + | |
| + | David: And you were there and have some very good stories... |
| [crosstalk] | | [crosstalk] |
− | | + | |
| + | |
| + | [clipped out of audio?] |
| Betsy: I want to know, how are you going to know how to spell things? He | | Betsy: I want to know, how are you going to know how to spell things? He |
| used the name John Dilks. If you go to write it out, how do you | | used the name John Dilks. If you go to write it out, how do you |
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| it down. I can concentrate on the conversation, rather than taking | | it down. I can concentrate on the conversation, rather than taking |
| notes. | | notes. |
| + | [restarts] |
| + | |
| | | |
| David: OK. One thing I thought would be kind of worthwhile...putting the | | David: OK. One thing I thought would be kind of worthwhile...putting the |
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| computers -- the pre-personal computer era, which I would say would | | computers -- the pre-personal computer era, which I would say would |
| be 1972 or so up through '75, when the first computers came out. | | be 1972 or so up through '75, when the first computers came out. |
− | What was happening then was you had big time-sharing systems. | + | |
− | | + | And what was happening then was you had big time-sharing systems. |
− | Then, manufacturers like DEC and HP were making smaller time- | + | But then, manufacturers like DEC and HP were making smaller time- |
| sharing systems for terminals on a computer. Specifically, Bob | | sharing systems for terminals on a computer. Specifically, Bob |
| Albrecht opened up People's Computer Company down in San Carlos, | | Albrecht opened up People's Computer Company down in San Carlos, |
| San Mateo, one of the "Sans." It was an open to the public place. | | San Mateo, one of the "Sans." It was an open to the public place. |
| What were people going to do with computers? Well, he wrote this | | What were people going to do with computers? Well, he wrote this |
− | book of what to do after you hit return, of games. | + | book of What To Do After You Hit Return, of games. |
| | | |
| Then I wrote my book, not for his center, but for people in the | | Then I wrote my book, not for his center, but for people in the |
| east that had access to the same type of things on DEC computers. | | east that had access to the same type of things on DEC computers. |
− | Those two books actually came out in '72. That was well | + | Those two books actually came out in '72, so that was well |
| before....There was an impetus for people to use computers. Even | | before....There was an impetus for people to use computers. Even |
| though it was mini-computers and they didn't really have their own, | | though it was mini-computers and they didn't really have their own, |
| they did have access. | | they did have access. |
| | | |
− | That, I think, was an important thing because, then, when the kit | + | So that, I think, was an important thing because, then, when the kit |
| computers first came out, which is '75, we really had the kit | | computers first came out, which is '75, we really had the kit |
| computer era from '75 to around '78. That's when it primary was, | | computer era from '75 to around '78. That's when it primary was, |
| the do-it-yourself, build-it-yourself. | | the do-it-yourself, build-it-yourself. |
| | | |
− | Who did those computers appeal to? It was largely people who were | + | Well who did those computers appeal to? It was largely people who |
− | OK with things like soldering guns. That was largely HAM radio | + | were OK with things like soldering guns and that was largely HAM radio |
| people. You look at "73" magazine and "Radio Electronics," those | | people. You look at "73" magazine and "Radio Electronics," those |
| were the ones that dragged the hardware people into the field, and | | were the ones that dragged the hardware people into the field, and |
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| that you could plug into the S-100 bus. There was more, but on the | | that you could plug into the S-100 bus. There was more, but on the |
| other hand, you had to build it. That was really a stumbling block | | other hand, you had to build it. That was really a stumbling block |
− | for a lot of people. Then processor technology with the SAL. OK, | + | for a lot of people. Then Processor Technology with the SOL. OK, |
| here's an S-100 bus machine, but it's all built. That was a big | | here's an S-100 bus machine, but it's all built. That was a big |
| leap. | | leap. |
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| | | |
| David: Yeah. Again, magazine publishing. I remember, early on, I was on a | | David: Yeah. Again, magazine publishing. I remember, early on, I was on a |
− | TV show. McNeil Lehrer Report on Public Broadcasting. Life Magazine | + | TV show, McNeil Lehrer Report on Public Broadcasting. Life Magazine |
| was being re-launched and Time-Warner was spending a ton of money | | was being re-launched and Time-Warner was spending a ton of money |
| on this re-launch. They had the publisher of Life Magazine. | | on this re-launch. They had the publisher of Life Magazine. |
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| they had me. Sort of the opposite extreme. | | they had me. Sort of the opposite extreme. |
| | | |
| + | |
| + | [clipped out of audio?] |
| Kevin: You're going to be covered in cat hair by the time you're here. | | Kevin: You're going to be covered in cat hair by the time you're here. |
| | | |
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| | | |
| Kevin: Yes. Yes. Sorry to interrupt. | | Kevin: Yes. Yes. Sorry to interrupt. |
| + | [restarts] |
| + | |
| + | |
| | | |
| David: Anyway, they were interviewing both of us. They were going to spend | | David: Anyway, they were interviewing both of us. They were going to spend |
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| Betsy: Used. | | Betsy: Used. |
| | | |
− | David: Used. Yes. We didn't want to send stuff out to a typesetter | + | David: Used. Yes, yes. We didn't want to send stuff out to a typesetter |
− | where...what did you [inaudible 00:14:22] ? | + | where... what did you you call it? |
| | | |
| Betsy: It was the same thing with the fulfillment. You are sending it to a | | Betsy: It was the same thing with the fulfillment. You are sending it to a |
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| send it out and wait for your galleys to come back. Then you | | send it out and wait for your galleys to come back. Then you |
| proofread them. Then you'd send it back. Then they make the | | proofread them. Then you'd send it back. Then they make the |
− | corrections maybe and you get it back again. So we said, well...and | + | corrections, maybe, and you get it back again. So we said, well...and |
− | then we got this used, copy graphic was it? | + | then we got this used, CompuGraphic was it? |
| | | |
| David: Mm-hmm. Yep. | | David: Mm-hmm. Yep. |
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| Betsy: Typesetter. Found a young woman who knew typesetting and hired her. | | Betsy: Typesetter. Found a young woman who knew typesetting and hired her. |
| We bought our own stat camera. We always used to have to send all | | We bought our own stat camera. We always used to have to send all |
− | the stats and [inaudible 00:15:34] out to be made. | + | the stats and V-Luxes out to be made. |
| [crosstalk] | | [crosstalk] |
| | | |
| David: That was huge then before... | | David: That was huge then before... |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Had our own darkroom. | + | Betsy: ...had our own darkroom. |
| | | |
− | David: ...everything was computerized publishing. Yeah. We had our own | + | David: ...there was computerized publishing. Yeah. We had our own |
| darkroom and our own stat camera with the thing that goes over a | | darkroom and our own stat camera with the thing that goes over a |
| screen basically to make it into dots. | | screen basically to make it into dots. |
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| Kevin: Right. | | Kevin: Right. |
| | | |
− | David: To do that. To make those negatives or [inaudible 00:15:56] , which | + | David: a...nd to do that. To make those negatives or V-Luxes, which |
| are the positive. That was something again. You sent it out and you | | are the positive. That was something again. You sent it out and you |
| get it back. | | get it back. |
| + | |
| I said, "Oh, you know what, we got a little more type here than | | I said, "Oh, you know what, we got a little more type here than |
− | expected. We want to crop this. Well, we send it out again, and oh | + | expected. We want to crop this." Well, we send it out again, and oh |
− | my gosh." Doing all of that in-house, but it cost money. In a | + | my gosh. Doing all of that in-house, but it cost money. In a |
| sense, just for the hardware and capital improvements that you | | sense, just for the hardware and capital improvements that you |
| needed to do that. | | needed to do that. |
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| but then also tried to push into things like the consumer | | but then also tried to push into things like the consumer |
| electronics show. | | electronics show. |
| + | |
| We were the only magazine at the consumer electronics. That's a | | We were the only magazine at the consumer electronics. That's a |
| huge, huge show. Twice a year, one in Chicago and one in Las Vegas. | | huge, huge show. Twice a year, one in Chicago and one in Las Vegas. |
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| the shows. You have to experiment and do those things. We started | | the shows. You have to experiment and do those things. We started |
| reporting on new developments at the consumer electronics show and | | reporting on new developments at the consumer electronics show and |
− | there was some overlap with Computer Inc but it was mostly video | + | there was some overlap with computers but it was mostly video |
| games. No, it didn't have a real good payoff. [laughs] | | games. No, it didn't have a real good payoff. [laughs] |
| + | |
| Then there was the Boston show we went to where Betsy's feistiness | | Then there was the Boston show we went to where Betsy's feistiness |
| really came out. You go to those shows. I'm not talking about one | | really came out. You go to those shows. I'm not talking about one |
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| was really in his face about come on. We're a tiny little nit. Sure | | was really in his face about come on. We're a tiny little nit. Sure |
| we can do it. We can carry our own stuff. | | we can do it. We can carry our own stuff. |
| + | |
| Shelley Adelman, whose name you probably heard today, in a sense, | | Shelley Adelman, whose name you probably heard today, in a sense, |
| got his start by running these smaller shows around the country and | | got his start by running these smaller shows around the country and |
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| small press to exhibit was one platform up in the subway under | | small press to exhibit was one platform up in the subway under |
| Lincoln Center. | | Lincoln Center. |
| + | |
| Lincoln Center, of course, huge, but down one level is not shops. | | Lincoln Center, of course, huge, but down one level is not shops. |
| There may be a few shops but it was a big, open platform. That's | | There may be a few shops but it was a big, open platform. That's |
Line 1,929: |
Line 1,951: |
| convention or world future society. Yeah, it was world future | | convention or world future society. Yeah, it was world future |
| society convention. | | society convention. |
| + | |
| They had some notable people there. I was sitting down with Alvin | | They had some notable people there. I was sitting down with Alvin |
| Toffler in the lobby of the Colosseum and along comes over to us | | Toffler in the lobby of the Colosseum and along comes over to us |
− | Isaac [inaudible 00:27:03] (ED: from context, they are talking about
| + | Isaac Asimov. What a wonderful little party. We had some coffee in |
− | Isaac Asimov). What a wonderful little party. We had some coffee in | |
| the Colosseum and I said, "Isaac, can you write me an article?" | | the Colosseum and I said, "Isaac, can you write me an article?" |
− | "I got a good story from the robot series that hasn't been widely | + | "I got a good story from the I, Robot series that hasn't been widely |
| used or published and you can use that." So I got an early | | used or published and you can use that." So I got an early |
− | contribution from Isaac [inaudible 00:27:27] and Alvin | + | contribution from Asimov and Alvin Toffler wrote something for us. |
− | Toffler wrote something for us.
| |
| | | |
| Anyway, got to know some interesting people at that point. Then who | | Anyway, got to know some interesting people at that point. Then who |
Line 1,951: |
Line 1,972: |
| David: I don't know if you remember, we were reminded when Harry Garland | | David: I don't know if you remember, we were reminded when Harry Garland |
| was up at the thing in Seattle. Harry Garland was one of the first | | was up at the thing in Seattle. Harry Garland was one of the first |
− | ones to produce an independent manufactured a board, a 100 bus | + | ones to produce an independent manufactured a board, a S-100 bus |
| board, for the Altair, and this was really early, and he called it | | board, for the Altair, and this was really early, and he called it |
| the TV Dazzler. It made little squares light up but he could make | | the TV Dazzler. It made little squares light up but he could make |
| lots of them light up in different colors or just a few. It was a | | lots of them light up in different colors or just a few. It was a |
− | silly program but people said we can do graphics on this. | + | silly program but people said, whoa, we can do graphics on this. |
| + | |
| He eventually developed it into quite an interesting graphics tool, | | He eventually developed it into quite an interesting graphics tool, |
| I guess. People did buy the TV Dazzler for itself but the purpose | | I guess. People did buy the TV Dazzler for itself but the purpose |
− | was here's a board you could produce graphics, do some graphics. In | + | was here's a board you could produce graphics, do some graphics. |
− | any event, that's essentially what Michael Creighton's program did | + | |
− | for the Apple. Not much. | + | So in any event, that's essentially what Michael Creighton's program |
| + | did for the Apple. Not much. |
| | | |
| Betsy: This was not early on. | | Betsy: This was not early on. |
Line 1,972: |
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| Betsy: 1980, yeah. | | Betsy: 1980, yeah. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Did you publish it? | + | Kevin: So did you publish it? |
| | | |
| Betsy: No. I rejected it. [laughs] | | Betsy: No. I rejected it. [laughs] |
| | | |
− | David: I'm like we're going to reject an article from Michael Creighton? | + | David: I'm like, my god, we're going to reject an article from Michael Creighton? |
| | | |
− | Betsy: We both liked Michael Creighton as an article. | + | Betsy: We both liked Michael Creighton as an author. |
| | | |
| David: Oh my gosh. But we did. We really did. We had standards. | | David: Oh my gosh. But we did. We really did. We had standards. |
| | | |
| Betsy: Later on, though, he wrote something. It was better. It wasn't | | Betsy: Later on, though, he wrote something. It was better. It wasn't |
− | great. He did write something better and we did accept it. | + | great, but he did write something better and we did accept it. |
| | | |
| Kevin: Orson Scott Card wrote for Compute, I think. I don't know if he was | | Kevin: Orson Scott Card wrote for Compute, I think. I don't know if he was |
− | Orson Scott Card at that point, but [inaudible 00:30:00] . | + | Orson Scott Card yet at that point, but some flub who was writing, |
| + | yeah. But who else? |
| | | |
| David: We've crossed paths with some people. | | David: We've crossed paths with some people. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: [inaudible 00:30:09] was actually very nice | + | Betsy: Michael Creighton was actually very nice. |
| | | |
− | David: Yeah, 6 foot 8, big guy. He was very nice. Unfortunately, he died. | + | David: Yeah, 6 foot 8, big guy. He was a very nice guy. Unfortunately, he |
− | On the other end of things, early on, we really were...this was | + | died On the other end of things, early on, we really were...this was |
| probably even before Betsy got in...kind of in the small press | | probably even before Betsy got in...kind of in the small press |
| underground publishing movement as much as in the legitimate big | | underground publishing movement as much as in the legitimate big |
Line 2,000: |
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| Betsy: When I came, we had just published the first sleek, coated paper | | Betsy: When I came, we had just published the first sleek, coated paper |
| magazine and coated stock. In October 1978, I believe, that was | | magazine and coated stock. In October 1978, I believe, that was |
− | published. That was the first of the coated stock. That was kind of | + | published. That was the first one on coated stock. That was kind of |
| the bridge to legitimacy. | | the bridge to legitimacy. |
| | | |
− | David: For the first two years, [inaudible 00:31:09] news print and I had | + | David: For the first two years, it was published on news print and I had |
| a little tie in with some of the small press people. I was learning | | a little tie in with some of the small press people. I was learning |
− | about publishing from small press review, I got to know some of the | + | about publishing from small press review, and I got to know some of |
− | people who were doing successful publishing. A lot of them were | + | the people who were doing successful publishing. A lot of them were |
| magazines and comics out of San Francisco. | | magazines and comics out of San Francisco. |
− | So I got to know a little bit [inaudible 00:31:46] and Gilbert | + | |
| + | So I got to know a little bit... R. Crumb and Gilbert |
| Shelton and Sherry Flannigan, and some of those early, Bobby | | Shelton and Sherry Flannigan, and some of those early, Bobby |
| London. So anyway, one ad we ran real early on was an adaptation of | | London. So anyway, one ad we ran real early on was an adaptation of |
− | Renee and Robert Crompton. Go ahead and change my thing to creative | + | an add that Robert Crumb did. He said "Go ahead and change my thing |
− | computing. Go for it. Sherry Flannigan she did a comic strip called
| + | to creative computing. Go for it." Sherry Flannigan she did a comic |
− | Tronch and Bonnie, Tronch was a little dog and Bonnie was a little
| + | strip called Tronch and Bonnie, Tronch was a little dog and Bonnie |
− | girl and they occasionally got mixed up with a robot dog.
| + | was a little girl and they occasionally got mixed up with a robot dog. |
| + | So I published that. |
| | | |
| Kevin: Was there some sort of falling out with that person? | | Kevin: Was there some sort of falling out with that person? |
Line 2,021: |
Line 2,047: |
| major, major problem, she was involved with Gary Hallgrin and I | | major, major problem, she was involved with Gary Hallgrin and I |
| forget who the publisher was, McNeil, Bobby London. They were the | | forget who the publisher was, McNeil, Bobby London. They were the |
− | Air Pirates funniest group that Disney took to task, that caused | + | Air Pirates funniest group that Disney took to task, and really, oh |
− | the death of a lot of publishing in the underground comics
| + | my god, that caused the death of a lot of publishing in the underground |
− | movement. | + | comics movement. |
| | | |
| Kevin: I don't understand. | | Kevin: I don't understand. |
Line 2,035: |
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| | | |
| David: Disney just said, "We can't put up with this." It was an | | David: Disney just said, "We can't put up with this." It was an |
− | interesting case, because was it a copyright violation, not really | + | interesting case, because was it a copyright violation? Not really |
| because they were character look-a-likes, but they weren't calling | | because they were character look-a-likes, but they weren't calling |
| them Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck but they looked the same or very | | them Mickey Mouse or Donald Duck but they looked the same or very |
− | similar. But, it was a landmark case in underground comics, it | + | similar. But, it was a landmark case in the underground comics movement |
− | caused a lot of them to pull back, a lot on the satire and stuff | + | and it really caused a lot of them to pull back, a lot on the satire |
− | that they were publishing.
| + | and stuff that they were publishing. |
| | | |
| Kevin: I asked about Sherry because a number of years ago when I had first | | Kevin: I asked about Sherry because a number of years ago when I had first |
− | put the best of [inaudible 00:34:29] on my website, then after a | + | put the Best of Creative Computing books on my website, they were up |
− | while I got an email saying, "Look, you have to take this | + | for a while, then I got an email saying, "You have to take this content, |
− | [inaudible 00:34:37] ." I would copyright all, it was just like | + | these pages down... copyright violation", it was just like |
− | waving arms. So I took it down but it was, I thought, maybe it | + | waving their arms. So I took it down but it was, I thought, maybe it |
| was... | | was... |
| | | |
− | David: Well that whole copyright trademark thing, there interpretation | + | David: Well that whole copyright trademark thing, there interpretations |
− | that really, really strict...everything that goes on the Internet | + | that go from really, really strict...everything that goes on the |
− | is a public domain. Well, that is not really true either. Are you | + | Internet is a public domain. Well, that is not really true either. |
− | making money from copyrighted material? If you are then that's a
| + | Are you making money from copyrighted material? If you are then |
− | pretty clear violation. Are you affecting the copyright owners
| + | that's a pretty clear violation. Are you affecting the copyright |
− | ability to make money with it? That's a violation. | + | owner's ability to make money with it? That's a violation. |
− | I'm kind of in this right now with Uruguay and TinTin, those books | + | |
| + | I'm kind of in this right now with Hergé and TinTin, those books |
| have inspired a lot of people to make parodies and fake TinTin | | have inspired a lot of people to make parodies and fake TinTin |
− | covers. TinTin at the beach, places TinTin wouldn't normally go. | + | covers, you know, TinTin at the beach, you know, places TinTin |
− | Well is it affecting the sales of TinTin books, or is it actually
| + | wouldn't normally go. Well is it affecting the sales of TinTin books, |
− | increasingly them?
| + | or is it actually increasing them? |
| | | |
− | Casterman, who owns and [inaudible 00:36:07] owns the TinTin | + | Casterman, who owns, and Mulenard, own the TinTin copyrights. |
− | copyrights. They are really going after some of these people, but | + | They are really going after some of these people, but I'm not |
− | I'm not sure that they have a really good case. So some people take
| + | sure that they have a really good case. So some people take |
− | everything off and don't want nothing on the website. And others | + | everything off and want nothing on the website. And others |
| are saying, "Hey, this is legitimate." I have collected a lot of | | are saying, "Hey, this is legitimate." I have collected a lot of |
| those covers, and put them up on a website. | | those covers, and put them up on a website. |
Line 2,078: |
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| David: I think that they have to demonstrate that it's hurting them in | | David: I think that they have to demonstrate that it's hurting them in |
| some way. One last thing, from the question you asked yesterday, | | some way. One last thing, from the question you asked yesterday, |
− | back to the money issue, when I sold the magazine, right at that | + | back to the money issue, where does the money go, well when I |
− | time I took 15 percent of what I had received, and donated it to
| + | sold the magazine, right at that time I took 15 percent of what |
− | charities. I have in a sense signed on, although not as an official
| + | I had received, and donated it to charities. I have in a sense |
− | signee to the Gates-Buffet initiative to give away half of my
| + | signed on, although not as an official signee, to the Gates-Buffet |
− | wealth, while I am alive.
| + | initiative to give away half of my wealth, while I am alive. |
| + | |
| At one point in time you can compute that, I have already given | | At one point in time you can compute that, I have already given |
− | away more than I have received for Creative Computing to Charity. | + | away more than I have received for Creative Computing to charity. |
| Of course, it had grown a little bit and we made reasonably decent | | Of course, it had grown a little bit and we made reasonably decent |
− | investments and that is why it continued to grow. But, I'm really | + | investments and it continues to grow. But, I'm really committed |
− | committed to doing that. My kids are not going to inherit it all. | + | to doing that. My kids are not going to inherit it all. That's just |
− | That's just the way it is, that is the way I believe. Put my money
| + | the way it is, the way I believe. Put my money where my heart is. |
− | where my heart is. Anyway,
| + | Anyway, |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Other question is, you said something yesterday, I should follow up | + | Kevin: I have a question for you Betsy, you said something yesterday, |
− | that one. You said something about stealing Basic.
| + | I should follow up that one. You said something about stealing BASIC. |
| | | |
| Betsy: Well there was this big thing. Just the night before last, at this | | Betsy: Well there was this big thing. Just the night before last, at this |
Line 2,106: |
Line 2,134: |
| incidents and things from the past. | | incidents and things from the past. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Did you get to sell the story to this group of...? | + | Kevin: Did you get to tell a story to this group of...? |
| | | |
− | David: Not really, I was just followed up on something [inaudible | + | David: Not really, I just followed up on something Nolan Bushnell said. |
− | 00:39:24] .
| |
| | | |
| Betsy: Some of those stories were really boring. | | Betsy: Some of those stories were really boring. |
| [crosstalk] | | [crosstalk] |
| | | |
− | David: Oh yeah, long and boring. It's an interesting thing though, about | + | David: Oh yeah, long and boring. |
− | basic itself, but it was developed at an educational institution
| + | |
− | originally by Kemeny and Kurtz at Dartmouth. And they, either
| + | Betsy: Way too long. |
− | deliberately or because they had gotten a lot of grant money from
| + | |
− | General Electric in the early time sharing systems, they basically
| + | David: It's an interesting thing though, about basic itself, because, well |
− | let anybody use their Basic.
| + | it was developed at an educational institution originally by Kemeny |
− | It was developed at Dartmouth but later Honeywell put a system in | + | and Kurtz at Dartmouth. And they, either deliberately or because they |
− | at Minnesota or Florida or someplace else. They could use Basic,
| + | had gotten a lot of grant money from General Electric in the early time |
− | they could have a no license fee or anything. That made Basic a
| + | sharing systems, they basically let anybody use their Basic. |
− | universal language that was available, at least that version of | + | |
− | Basic. If you write a different version of Basic, where does that | + | So it was developed at Dartmouth but if GE, or later Ge/Honeywell, |
| + | put a system in at Minnesota or Florida or someplace else. They could |
| + | use Basic, they could have a no license fee or anything. That made Basic |
| + | a universal language that was available, at least that version of |
| + | Basic. |
| + | |
| + | Well then if you write a different version of Basic, where does that |
| fall? These are some sort of violation and you need some | | fall? These are some sort of violation and you need some |
| permission. And basically Kemeny and Kurtz said, "No, you don't." | | permission. And basically Kemeny and Kurtz said, "No, you don't." |
| + | |
| + | [background noise due to cat] |
| + | |
| And they allowed Basic to be used and developed by others. | | And they allowed Basic to be used and developed by others. |
| | | |
Line 2,132: |
Line 2,168: |
| roughly the same time, had developed also an interactive language | | roughly the same time, had developed also an interactive language |
| called Focal. And Focal in many regards was more efficient than | | called Focal. And Focal in many regards was more efficient than |
− | Basic, because they were running it on many computer and there was | + | Basic, because they were running it on mini-computers and there was |
| less memory to work with. On the other hand, and this was true | | less memory to work with. On the other hand, and this was true |
− | Digital...as time went on, they said, "No, nobody can use Focal. We | + | Digital...as time went on, they said, "No, no no, nobody else can use |
− | are not going to let, especially those people [inaudible 00:41:59]
| + | Focal. We are not going to let, especially those people at Data General, |
− | ." But any place else, nobody could use Focal. | + | but any place else, nobody could use Focal." |
| | | |
| I think it wound up with a situation like Sony and Betamax. Sony | | I think it wound up with a situation like Sony and Betamax. Sony |
| saying, "Betamax is ours and it is a better format that VHS," which | | saying, "Betamax is ours and it is a better format that VHS," which |
− | it was. But then, JVC saying, "We have VHS and Toshiba. Hey do you | + | it was, it definitely was. But then, JVC saying, "We have VHS. Ok Toshiba, |
− | want to use it? Fine, we'll license it to you for next to nothing."
| + | hey do you want to use it? Fine, we'll license it to you for next to |
| + | nothing." |
| | | |
| Kevin: You think Focal could have been Basic. | | Kevin: You think Focal could have been Basic. |
Line 2,148: |
Line 2,185: |
| have been very serious competition between the two languages, but | | have been very serious competition between the two languages, but |
| by Digital limiting it only to their own computers and specifically | | by Digital limiting it only to their own computers and specifically |
− | to their mini computers, not even the big mainframes, it really | + | to their minicomputers, not even the big mainframes, it really |
− | limited the spread of Focal. In fact, it forced me to go out to the | + | limited the spread of Focal. In fact, it forced me, at DEC, to go |
− | developers and people in educational institutions they wanted
| + | out to the developers, and people in educational institutions they |
− | Basic. | + | wanted Basic. |
− | There were few schools and colleges in Boston area, near DEC that | + | |
| + | There were a few schools and colleges in Boston area, near DEC that |
| were OK with Focal. But stuff was getting published by Minnesota | | were OK with Focal. But stuff was getting published by Minnesota |
− | Educational Computer Consortium and others in Basic, [inaudible | + | Educational Computer Consortium and others in Basic, and Huntington |
− | 00:43:32] computer project. So they wanted Basic. [laughs] I had to | + | Computer Project. So they wanted Basic. [laughs] I had to |
− | go on. I hired one group, actually it turned out to be just an | + | go out, I hired one group, actually it turned out to be just an |
− | individual guy in Brooklyn that developed a Basic for 4KPDP8. Well | + | individual guy in Brooklyn that developed a Basic for 4K PDP-8. Well |
− | Basic took 3.5K, I gave you 500 words, 512 bit not even the 16 bit, | + | Basic took 3.5K, that gave you 500 words, 500 12 bit, not even |
− | at least get 2 bits per...but 500 words the right programs. Wasn't
| + | 16 bit, at least get 2 bytes per... but 500 words to write programs. |
− | much.
| + | Wasn't much. |
| | | |
− | So that forced Lunar Lander and [inaudible 00:44:15] and some of | + | So that forced Lunar Lander and Hamurabi and some of those programs |
− | those programs actually. Some of them I imported over from Focal | + | actually. Some of them I imported over from Focal into Basic. And |
− | into Basic. And then we had a machine that had 8K. We had a
| + | then we had a machine that had 8K, we had a different version of Basic |
− | different version of Basic because Hewlett Packard had a machine
| + | and then because Hewlett Packard had a machine that read cards, mark |
− | that read cards, mark sense cards. We had to have a different
| + | sense cards, we had to have a different version of basic for that. |
− | version of basic for that. Then we had a timeshare Basic. We had
| + | Then we had a timeshare Basic. We had six versions of Basic, five actually |
− | six versions of Basic, five actually on the PDP8 family. It was
| + | on the PDP-8 family. It was absurd, it was crazy, but well, we had to do it. |
− | absurd, it was crazy, but we had to do it.
| |
| | | |
− | Kevin: I was going to ask you, the process of like...you started | + | Kevin: I was going to ask you, kind of the process of like... you started |
− | saying...you interrupted yourself. You said, "People would submit | + | saying... you interrupted yourself really, you said, "People would submit |
| articles and then..." I don't know what you were going to say next. | | articles and then..." I don't know what you were going to say next. |
− | But [inaudible 00:45:08] that I wanted to ask you like just the | + | But it reminded me that I wanted to ask you like, kind of, just the |
| process of how the magazine got made. You got an article was, | | process of how the magazine got made. You got an article was, |
− | somebody just typed up or something and... | + | I assume it was typed up or something and... |
| | | |
| Betsy: You mean the mechanics of the production? | | Betsy: You mean the mechanics of the production? |
Line 2,183: |
Line 2,220: |
| | | |
| Betsy: We can receive most of the articles for the magazine came over the | | Betsy: We can receive most of the articles for the magazine came over the |
− | transom. And we would get these articles and our editorial system | + | transom. And we would get these articles and our editorial assistant |
− | would log them in and pass them around to editorial staff. John | + | would log them in and pass them around to the editorial staff. John |
− | Anderson and Russell [inaudible 00:45:42] . | + | Anderson and Russ Lockwood and... |
| | | |
| David: Peter Fee. | | David: Peter Fee. |
Line 2,191: |
Line 2,228: |
| Betsy: Peter Fee. | | Betsy: Peter Fee. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: What does it mean over the transom? | + | Kevin: What does that mean, over the transom? |
| | | |
| Betsy: Means they weren't solicited. Somebody in the middle of the night | | Betsy: Means they weren't solicited. Somebody in the middle of the night |
− | jumped to know [laughs] or through the mailbox. We put a little | + | dumped them overboard [laughs] or through the mailbox. We put a little |
| piece of paper on there and the guys would write their opinions. | | piece of paper on there and the guys would write their opinions. |
| | | |
Line 2,220: |
Line 2,257: |
| Once we were well established, the vast majority of them went back. | | Once we were well established, the vast majority of them went back. |
| We never returned manuscripts. And they would come with piles of | | We never returned manuscripts. And they would come with piles of |
− | code. A lot of them were programs and, we would decide and the | + | code. A lot of them were programs and, then we would decide, and |
− | editorial assistants job to notify the person. Then we bought all | + | then it was the editorial assistants job to notify the person. |
− | rights, didn't we?
| + | Then we bought all rights, didn't we? |
| | | |
| David: Mm-hmm. | | David: Mm-hmm. |
| | | |
| Betsy: North American Serial rights, that's what we bought for everything. | | Betsy: North American Serial rights, that's what we bought for everything. |
− | Then they would go into a cube. Sometimes we would say something, | + | Then they would go into a queue. Sometimes we would say something, |
| "Oh, this is going to go really well with this educational | | "Oh, this is going to go really well with this educational |
− | institute that we're doing in June," Like that one is for June or | + | institute that we're doing in June," so slate that one for June, or |
| just put it in the queue and we will see when it comes or rises to | | just put it in the queue and we will see when it comes or rises to |
| the top or whatever. | | the top or whatever. |
| + | |
| The more technical editors like, John Anderson, he was our best guy | | The more technical editors like, John Anderson, he was our best guy |
− | ever. They would go through the code and make sure the code worked, | + | ever... they would go through the code and make sure the code worked, |
| and I would edit them for content and correct them. | | and I would edit them for content and correct them. |
| | | |
− | David: For English and Grammar. | + | David: For English, for grammar. |
| | | |
| Betsy: Yeah, with a pen and pencil. Then they would go to our typesetter. | | Betsy: Yeah, with a pen and pencil. Then they would go to our typesetter. |
Line 2,247: |
Line 2,285: |
| | | |
| Betsy: And then, if they had screenshots or anything the art department | | Betsy: And then, if they had screenshots or anything the art department |
− | would make them into photo stats or [inaudible 00:49:02] . And then | + | would make them into photo stats or v-luxes. And then when it was |
− | when it was time for them to go to press they would put them on
| + | time for them to go to press they would put them on boards, pieces |
− | boards, pieces of cardboard, white paper...
| + | of cardboard, white paper... |
| | | |
− | Kevin: So you paste up? | + | Kevin: So like paste up? |
| | | |
| Betsy: Yeah, they do the paste up and put it on there. | | Betsy: Yeah, they do the paste up and put it on there. |
| | | |
− | David: The boards were using non reproducing blue on its photograph. They | + | David: The boards were using non-reproducing blue on its photograph. They |
| had different outlines, blue defined columns, both two and three | | had different outlines, blue defined columns, both two and three |
− | column pages and upper limits and page numbers and all that kind of | + | column pages and upper limits and page numbers can go and all that kind of |
| stuff. | | stuff. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: We were still doing it on [inaudible 00:49:43] newspaper in 1990. | + | Kevin: We were still doing it in college newspaper in 1990. |
| [laughs] | | [laughs] |
| | | |
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| to read it to make sure there is no lines left out, particularly of | | to read it to make sure there is no lines left out, particularly of |
| the programs. Make sure that those all still make sense. There were | | the programs. Make sure that those all still make sense. There were |
− | many cases where line got left out or artists cuts off a things and | + | many cases where line got left out or artists cuts off the thing and |
− | realizes, "Oh, I mean to cut it short." And that whole line | + | realizes, "Oh, I mean to cut it shorter." and that little line |
| disappears and then you send it off to be printed and all the | | disappears and then you send it off to be printed and all the |
− | subscribers get a little upset because Startrek doesn't run. | + | subscribers get a little upset because Star Trek doesn't run. |
| [laughs] | | [laughs] |
| | | |
− | Kevin: So that sort of thing happened frequently or often? | + | Kevin: So that sort of thing happened infrequently, or often? |
| | | |
| David: With typeset material, not much at all. But with program listings, | | David: With typeset material, not much at all. But with program listings, |
Line 2,280: |
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| end dot matrix printer. And we always encouraged people, if you're | | end dot matrix printer. And we always encouraged people, if you're |
| going to submit a program, submit it in some machine-readable form. | | going to submit a program, submit it in some machine-readable form. |
− | So we don't want to type them all in to make sure they work. Even | + | We don't want to type them all in to make sure they work, even |
| though our readers are going to have to, but we don't want to have | | though our readers are going to have to, but we don't want to have |
| to do that. So send us. But even so, we might then print it off on | | to do that. So send us. But even so, we might then print it off on |
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| | | |
| Kevin: Personally, I know it said so much about magazine that when it | | Kevin: Personally, I know it said so much about magazine that when it |
− | continued, there were just sometimes a handwritten area going, | + | continued, there were just sometimes a handwritten arrow going, |
| "Continued over here." [laughs] | | "Continued over here." [laughs] |
| | | |
Line 2,304: |
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| David: Oh, absolutely. | | David: Oh, absolutely. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: That was a early. | + | Betsy: That was early. |
| | | |
| Kevin: It wasn't professional, and that was awesome. It was just like, | | Kevin: It wasn't professional, and that was awesome. It was just like, |
| "OK." | | "OK." |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Then what we would do, we would request when we...we would solicit | + | Betsy: Then what we would do, we would request when we... we would solicit |
| articles. Like if there was a new Apple peripheral that we wanted | | articles. Like if there was a new Apple peripheral that we wanted |
| to review, we'd get the product. Then a lot of times, our own guys | | to review, we'd get the product. Then a lot of times, our own guys |
Line 2,315: |
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| have time for, or that was better suited to one of our freelancers, | | have time for, or that was better suited to one of our freelancers, |
| we would send it out and ask for a review of it. | | we would send it out and ask for a review of it. |
| + | |
| A lot of reviews came in over the transom too, but we tried to be | | A lot of reviews came in over the transom too, but we tried to be |
| careful of those, that they were not either trying to justify their | | careful of those, that they were not either trying to justify their |
Line 2,320: |
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| producing it. [laughs] | | producing it. [laughs] |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Or written by the... [crosstalk] | + | Kevin: Or written by the [ED: manufacturer]... [crosstalk] |
| + | |
| + | David: That didn't really happen. |
| | | |
| Betsy: That really wasn't an issue at the time, it was a more innocent | | Betsy: That really wasn't an issue at the time, it was a more innocent |
Line 2,332: |
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| computer field at all I was in market research. There are a number | | computer field at all I was in market research. There are a number |
| of biases, too, that really overwhelmingly affect all kinds of | | of biases, too, that really overwhelmingly affect all kinds of |
− | market research polls or surveys. One is that people think they're | + | market research, polls, or surveys. One is that people think they're |
| better than they are. For example, if we were doing a poll or a | | better than they are. For example, if we were doing a poll or a |
| research study, we'd put a question on basically designed to show | | research study, we'd put a question on basically designed to show |
Line 2,341: |
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| [crosstalk] | | [crosstalk] |
| | | |
− | David: No, no. This was way earlier. I'm talking about Proctor and Gamble | + | David: No, no, way earlier. I'm talking about Proctor and Gamble |
− | products or general foods or that kind of thing. Anyways, the | + | products or General Foods or that kind of thing. Anyways, the |
| question we put on was "please rank your driving ability," and we | | question we put on was "please rank your driving ability," and we |
| had from well below average, accident waiting to happen up to Mario | | had from well below average, accident waiting to happen up to Mario |
Line 2,348: |
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| of the population ranked themselves better than the average. Where | | of the population ranked themselves better than the average. Where |
| is your average then? Its way high. | | is your average then? Its way high. |
| + | |
| The other thing, equally pervasive in a sense, is that people | | The other thing, equally pervasive in a sense, is that people |
| wanted to justify a decision, a purchase decision. In fact, back | | wanted to justify a decision, a purchase decision. In fact, back |
Line 2,361: |
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| that did own that particular car did buy another one? They're | | that did own that particular car did buy another one? They're |
| always way lower than they those that say they would buy another | | always way lower than they those that say they would buy another |
− | one. It gets more pronounced with higher prices. | + | one. |
| + | |
| + | And it gets more pronounced with higher prices. If you've made a decision |
| + | to buy a high-priced car, you're going to think, "Man, I'll tell you what. |
| + | This Land Rover was the best car I have ever bought." And 78 percent of |
| + | people might say, "I'm going to buy another one." and you know what, |
| + | about 15 percent of the people actually do. |
| | | |
− | If you've made a decision to buy a high-priced car, you're going to
| + | Kevin: So this gets back to the magazine because people want to justify in a |
− | think, "I'll tell you what. This Land Rover was the best car I have
| + | review... |
− | ever bought." 78 percent of people might say, "I'm going to buy
| |
− | another one." About 15 percent of the people actually do.
| |
− | | |
− | Kevin: So [inaudible 00:56:49] magazine because people want to justify a | |
− | review. | |
| | | |
| David: Yeah. That's exactly right. And as Betsy said, it could go the | | David: Yeah. That's exactly right. And as Betsy said, it could go the |
| other way, too. "I think I'm getting screwed here with this product | | other way, too. "I think I'm getting screwed here with this product |
− | and I'm going to knock it." When you get reviews, in essence, over | + | and I'm going to knock it." So when you get reviews, in essence, over |
| the transom, they're either justifying, "This was really wonderful. | | the transom, they're either justifying, "This was really wonderful. |
| I made a great decision buying this particular product," or "I hate | | I made a great decision buying this particular product," or "I hate |
Line 2,381: |
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| Kevin: Do you ever push-back from advertisers? | | Kevin: Do you ever push-back from advertisers? |
| | | |
− | David: All the time. | + | Betsy: All the time. |
| | | |
| Kevin: Can you tell me? | | Kevin: Can you tell me? |
Line 2,390: |
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| objective, and not every product is perfect. Almost every product | | objective, and not every product is perfect. Almost every product |
| is going to have some negative feature. | | is going to have some negative feature. |
| + | |
| We would put those in and the advertisers would then go to their ad | | We would put those in and the advertisers would then go to their ad |
| rep and complain. Then the ad rep would come to us and say, "Why | | rep and complain. Then the ad rep would come to us and say, "Why |
Line 2,398: |
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| then it will reflect on your ad." | | then it will reflect on your ad." |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Do you remember anyone ever pulling ads [inaudible 00:58:39] ? | + | Kevin: Do you remember anyone ever pulling ads, you know...? |
| | | |
| Betsy: I don't, offhand. Do you? | | Betsy: I don't, offhand. Do you? |
Line 2,406: |
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| reviews. They did get more advertising than we did from some | | reviews. They did get more advertising than we did from some |
| manufacturers that liked that. I hate to name names, but Compute | | manufacturers that liked that. I hate to name names, but Compute |
− | Magazine. I don't think you'll find any negative reviews in Compute | + | magazine. I don't think you'll find any negative reviews in Compute |
− | Magazine. Everything was the greatest thing since sliced bread. | + | magazine. Everything was the greatest thing since sliced bread. |
− | Personal Computing, similar, very positive. "Gee whiz" reviews on | + | Personal Computing, similar, very positive "Wow, gee whiz" reviews on |
| almost all the things that they saw. It just isn't that way. | | almost all the things that they saw. It just isn't that way. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: You have talked about [inaudible 00:59:49] . We've talked briefly | + | Kevin: You have talked a lot about Creative and we've talked briefly |
| at least about the other magazines. Sync, the one about Timex | | at least about the other magazines. Sync, the one about Timex |
| Sinclair. I understand the allure of publishing a magazine geared | | Sinclair. I understand the allure of publishing a magazine geared |
Line 2,429: |
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| Computer World in England. | | Computer World in England. |
| | | |
− | David: And we had an agreement that they would reprint materials from | + | David: And we had an agreement that they could reprint materials from |
| Creative Computing, which they did for a while but then they | | Creative Computing, which they did for a while but then they |
| developed their own in-house capabilities and there was enough | | developed their own in-house capabilities and there was enough |
Line 2,435: |
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| England that we could take subscriptions. | | England that we could take subscriptions. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: A housewife who kept her dark issues in her spare bathroom. | + | Betsy: A housewife who kept the back issues in her spare bathroom. |
| [laughs] | | [laughs] |
| | | |
| David: Yeah, we still know her. Hazel Greaves, Hazy. Anyway, so we were | | David: Yeah, we still know her. Hazel Greaves, Hazy. Anyway, so we were |
| getting enough subscriptions from England. We were sending over, I | | getting enough subscriptions from England. We were sending over, I |
− | don't know how they packaged them up, but they call them Mbags, M- | + | don't know how they packaged them up, but they call them Mbox, or M- |
− | bags, mail bags basically of magazines, then we mail them from | + | bags, mail bags basically of magazines, then we remail them from |
| England. So I had more of our connection with British market than | | England. So I had more of our connection with British market than |
− | probably any of the other magazines, we definitely did. | + | probably any of the other magazines, well definitely did. |
− | And so I get to know Clarkson Clair and what's going on over there. | + | |
| + | And so I get to know Clive Sinclair and what's going on over there. |
| And then when they bring over the computer to this country and | | And then when they bring over the computer to this country and |
− | Timex, my God, big outfit. They were going to market it. By that | + | Timex, I mean my God, big outfit. They were going to market it. By that |
− | time you know, there was no point starting a [inaudible 01:02:25] | + | time you know, there was no point starting a Commodore |
| magazine or an entire magazine. They were, Or Apple, they were | | magazine or an entire magazine. They were, Or Apple, they were |
| already existed. So maybe this is going to be the next big one. We | | already existed. So maybe this is going to be the next big one. We |
− | will be right there when they start and we were. | + | will be right there when they start. When they were. |
| | | |
− | Timex actually put, what we had simple, simple sink or something | + | Timex actually put, what we had simple, simple Sync or something |
| but it was in the package with the computer. So that was one way of | | but it was in the package with the computer. So that was one way of |
| getting our subscriber base and we couldn't possibly afford to | | getting our subscriber base and we couldn't possibly afford to |
− | advertise and do direct mailings for magazine like that. But they | + | advertise and do direct mailings for a magazine like that. But they |
− | were in essence helping us go on. So that's why it is pretty | + | were, in a sense, helping us get going. So that's why. It was pretty |
− | successful actually. Often, we were making money on the magazine | + | successful actually. We were making money on that magazine |
| mainly because we didn't have to promote it. | | mainly because we didn't have to promote it. |
| | | |
| If we had to get subscriptions, we could not have possibly made it | | If we had to get subscriptions, we could not have possibly made it |
| work. There wasn't enough advertising really. I don't know what the | | work. There wasn't enough advertising really. I don't know what the |
− | issue here was, but it was not as good as we would have liked it. | + | ratio here was, but it was not as good as we would have liked it. |
| The magazine would have been tiny if we maintained the same | | The magazine would have been tiny if we maintained the same |
| advertising to edit ratio we would have liked. But we didn't lose | | advertising to edit ratio we would have liked. But we didn't lose |
− | money out of it but we didn't make anything out of it either. I | + | money on it but we didn't make anything on it either. I |
− | think it was a breakeven proposition. | + | think it was a break-even proposition. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: OK. Microsystems. [inaudible 01:04:09] . | + | Kevin: OK. Microsystems. I'll say I don't think I know anything about it, |
| + | but it was on the list. |
| | | |
− | David: I said there was a lot of early development in New Jersey and there | + | David: Microsystems... I said there was a lot of early development in |
− | was a guy named Saul Libes, you will find him probably, [laughs]
| + | New Jersey and there was a guy named Saul Libes, you will find him |
− | who was the first president of the Amature Computer Group in New
| + | probably, [laughs] who was the first president of the Amateur |
− | Jersey. He was a Professor at [inaudible 01:04:43] College and he
| + | Computer Group in New Jersey. He was a Professor at Trenton State |
− | felt that Byte magazine started out fine but then they were
| + | College, and he felt that Byte magazine started out fine but then |
− | focusing more on assembled hardware and things that were already
| + | they were focusing more on assembled hardware and things that were |
− | made. | + | already made. |
| + | |
| So he wanted to get down on really lower level of do it yourself, | | So he wanted to get down on really lower level of do it yourself, |
| build it yourself. Microsystems was more like Byte was in the very | | build it yourself. Microsystems was more like Byte was in the very |
− | beginning, focusing on circuit diagram, this was logic in PC's and | + | beginning, publishing circuit diagram with logic in PC's and |
| everything. | | everything. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: There first name was S100, Microsystems | + | Betsy: The first name was S-100 Microsystems. |
| | | |
− | David: Yeah, S100 perhaps then it became Microsystems in '78 or '79. When | + | David: Yeah, for the S-100 bus, then it became Microsystems in '78 or '79. |
− | some of the others came out they started [inaudible 01:05:45] 6800 | + | When some of the others came out they started covering the 6800 |
− | and 68,000 chips from Motorola. But I would say it was a really | + | and 68000 chips from Motorola. But I would say it was a really |
− | techy magazine and it was one that I think probably killed that one | + | techy magazine and it was one that I think, Ziff probably killed |
− | off.
| + | that one off. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: It was dead before [inaudible 01:06:05] . [laughs] | + | Betsy: It was dead before before Ziff. [laughs] |
| | | |
| David: It might have been. I don't know, but it was... | | David: It might have been. I don't know, but it was... |
| | | |
− | Betsy: S100 bus did not survive and to the [inaudible 01:06:12] . | + | Betsy: I mean, S-100 bus did not survive into the 80's. |
| | | |
| David: It was dead before as there was these eras and the do it yourself | | David: It was dead before as there was these eras and the do it yourself |
− | S100 era,that was '75 to '78. Then it kind of had a downward spiral | + | S100 era, that was '75 to '78. Then it kind of had a downward spiral |
| of two or three years and it was gone. Well, maybe it wasn't gone | | of two or three years and it was gone. Well, maybe it wasn't gone |
| but it wasn't the same. And so Microsystems was tuned into that and | | but it wasn't the same. And so Microsystems was tuned into that and |
| they were running hardcore stuff. | | they were running hardcore stuff. |
− | And the reason that Saul...we reach an agreement with him to | + | |
| + | And the reason that Saul... we reached an agreement with him to |
| publish it, is basically he didn't have any real magazine | | publish it, is basically he didn't have any real magazine |
| background. We thought we could do something with it. It turned out | | background. We thought we could do something with it. It turned out |
− | not to be a good fit bit we published it for a while. I don't know | + | not to be a good fit, but we published it for a while. I don't know |
| if we made money or lost money on that. Probably it didn't make | | if we made money or lost money on that. Probably it didn't make |
| anything. [laughs] | | anything. [laughs] |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Small business computers or computing. | + | Kevin: Small Business Computers, or Computing. |
| | | |
| David: What? | | David: What? |
Line 2,514: |
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| Betsy: Small business computers? Who do we buy that from? I can't even | | Betsy: Small business computers? Who do we buy that from? I can't even |
| remember. You can't even remember that we had it, I can tell by the | | remember. You can't even remember that we had it, I can tell by the |
− | look on your face | + | look on your face. |
| | | |
− | David: I can | + | David: I can't. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: That one of my brothers...my brother was a publisher remember? | + | Betsy: That one of my brother... my brother was the publisher remember? |
| | | |
| David: Yeah, I don't know who or where we got it. | | David: Yeah, I don't know who or where we got it. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: That just fall into grave or...? | + | Kevin: That just fold into Creative or...? |
| | | |
| Betsy: Eventually, but that we post it for a while. I think is something | | Betsy: Eventually, but that we post it for a while. I think is something |
| that somebody basically left on our door step. | | that somebody basically left on our door step. |
| | | |
− | David: Yeah | + | David: Yeah. |
| | | |
| Betsy: I think it was kind of like a puppy on the... [laughter] | | Betsy: I think it was kind of like a puppy on the... [laughter] |
Line 2,533: |
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| David: I think it came with your brother. | | David: I think it came with your brother. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: No, because my brother wasn't into publishing until after clearing | + | Betsy: No, because my brother wasn't doing publishing until after leaving |
| college. | | college. |
| | | |
− | David: It sounded like a good idea at the time. | + | David: It sounded like a good idea at the time, but... |
| | | |
− | Betsy: I think we saw a future in business computing | + | Betsy: I think we saw a future in business computing. |
| | | |
− | David: Yeah, we did and unfortunately that was one word as if they just | + | David: Yeah, we did, and unfortunately that was one Ziff Davis... |
− | want...I mentioned yesterday that they wanted to really shift the
| + | I mentioned yesterday that they wanted to really shift the |
| focus of Creative Computing away from home and broaden out and | | focus of Creative Computing away from home and broaden out and |
| shifted into the small business market. And just did not, it was an | | shifted into the small business market. And just did not, it was an |
Line 2,550: |
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| where it went. | | where it went. |
| | | |
− | David: I don't know, either. | + | David: I don't either. |
| | | |
| Betsy: But I know that obviously it wasn't a huge acquisition. | | Betsy: But I know that obviously it wasn't a huge acquisition. |
Line 2,560: |
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| | | |
| David: Actually, a bigger acquisition was earlier and that was ROM | | David: Actually, a bigger acquisition was earlier and that was ROM |
− | Magazine. Rom was published by who? (ED: not the Atari-related | + | Magazine. ROM was published by who? (ED: not the Atari-related |
| magazine of the early 1980s.) | | magazine of the early 1980s.) |
| | | |
Line 2,572: |
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| with it. Published nine issues and a little different focus than | | with it. Published nine issues and a little different focus than |
| Creative but it really overlapped us very nicely. He had more | | Creative but it really overlapped us very nicely. He had more |
− | graphic stuff. In fact, it was through him that I got to know | + | graphic stuff and it was through him that I got to know |
| George Baker and some of the people up there. The other guy that | | George Baker and some of the people up there. The other guy that |
| did the pixelated blocks photos. You've seen those. | | did the pixelated blocks photos. You've seen those. |
Line 2,583: |
Line 2,631: |
| | | |
| David: Block pics. OK, he and George Baker sort of came as a package with | | David: Block pics. OK, he and George Baker sort of came as a package with |
− | Rom, they knew of each other. We actually, I would say, four or | + | ROM, they knew of each other. We actually, for I would say, four or |
− | five issues, ran Rom as a whole separate section and even set it on | + | five issues, ran ROM as a whole separate section and even set it on |
− | the cover of Creative Computing and Rom. Then it became evident... | + | the cover of Creative Computing and ROM. And then it became evident... |
| | | |
| Betsy: I think that was because he had a whole other editorial kicking | | Betsy: I think that was because he had a whole other editorial kicking |
Line 2,592: |
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| David: Yeah. | | David: Yeah. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: We bought. | + | Betsy: That we bought. |
| | | |
| David: Could be. And then we would just merge it in completely, but that | | David: Could be. And then we would just merge it in completely, but that |
| was a very good fit. It brought us more editorial than it did | | was a very good fit. It brought us more editorial than it did |
− | subscribers. They did not have a big subscriber base, but it was a | + | subscribers. They did not have a big subscriber base. But it was a |
| nice marriage in a sense. | | nice marriage in a sense. |
| | | |
Line 2,614: |
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| David: Yeah. There were only two that really were distributed. | | David: Yeah. There were only two that really were distributed. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: So I have... | + | Kevin: So now I have... |
| [crosstalk] | | [crosstalk] |
| | | |
Line 2,620: |
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| | | |
| David: Yeah, if you can get a hold of the third one. [laughter] I don't | | David: Yeah, if you can get a hold of the third one. [laughter] I don't |
− | even have that. There's a same thing on Tarry-on. There were three | + | even have that. There's a same thing on Atarian. There were three |
− | issues of Tarry-on that I did not keep the third issue. Oh, man. | + | issues of Atarian that I did not keep the third issue. Oh, man. |
| Shoot me. | | Shoot me. |
| | | |
Line 2,629: |
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| magazines focusing on that. Talk about magazines that were running | | magazines focusing on that. Talk about magazines that were running |
| non-objective manufacture-provided reviews, all the others were. I, | | non-objective manufacture-provided reviews, all the others were. I, |
− | maybe, convinced myself and some people at Davis that there was a | + | maybe, convinced myself and some people at Ziff Davis that there was |
− | need for really objective... | + | a need for really objective... |
| | | |
| Betsy: Ziff? Did Ziff do that? | | Betsy: Ziff? Did Ziff do that? |
Line 2,655: |
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| Arcade games then really were on the decline. Video arcades where | | Arcade games then really were on the decline. Video arcades where |
| you go in and pop a quarter in, because there was so much more | | you go in and pop a quarter in, because there was so much more |
− | capability in the home computers and the [inaudible 01:12:55] and | + | capability in the home computers and the Coleco and the Mattel |
− | the Mattel and the different home systems. They could do all now, | + | and the different home systems. They could do all, well, |
| not as much, but you get a pretty darned good game that you could | | not as much, but you get a pretty darned good game that you could |
| take home with you and not have to pop a quarter in the slot every | | take home with you and not have to pop a quarter in the slot every |
| time you play. | | time you play. |
| + | |
| So arcade games were kind of on the downward spiral, so that | | So arcade games were kind of on the downward spiral, so that |
| eliminated a lot of potential advertising. We weren't going to get | | eliminated a lot of potential advertising. We weren't going to get |
− | any advertising from Nameco and all of the producers of the arcade | + | any advertising from Namco and all of the producers of the arcade |
| games, which was, "Hey, it is advertising along with..." And the | | games, which was, "Hey, it is advertising along with..." And the |
− | other home producers of the game, there were four or five magazines | + | other home producers of the games, there were four or five magazines |
| already that they were pouring money into. They didn't really want | | already that they were pouring money into. They didn't really want |
| another one. | | another one. |
Line 2,679: |
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| get. | | get. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: [inaudible 01:14:28] Atari explored and Atari I think we've covered | + | Kevin: Ok, the others I have are Atari Explorer and Atarian, I think we've |
− | pretty well. | + | covered pretty well. |
| | | |
| David: Yeah. | | David: Yeah. |
Line 2,688: |
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| David: [laughs] Yes. | | David: [laughs] Yes. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: So the other magazines, Byte and [inaudible 01:14:45] , was it | + | Kevin: So the other magazines, Byte and Kilobaud, was it rivalry? |
− | rivalry? Was it friendly competition? | + | Was it friendly competition? |
| | | |
| David: Byte, we were in bed together. Not in bed together, but we | | David: Byte, we were in bed together. Not in bed together, but we |
Line 2,717: |
Line 2,766: |
| in the same place and you're going in a hardware direction, we're | | in the same place and you're going in a hardware direction, we're |
| going on the software. | | going on the software. |
| + | |
| When Wayne Green threw this intrigue with his wife and everything | | When Wayne Green threw this intrigue with his wife and everything |
| else, lost Byte Magazine. He was fit to be tied. "I'm going to kill | | else, lost Byte Magazine. He was fit to be tied. "I'm going to kill |
Line 2,731: |
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| early on forced him not to use the name byte at all. | | early on forced him not to use the name byte at all. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: So it was byte. | + | Betsy: I'm sure it was Byte. |
| [laughter] | | [laughter] |
| | | |
Line 2,749: |
Line 2,799: |
| competition with him than in the magazine itself, because again, he | | competition with him than in the magazine itself, because again, he |
| was trying to be like Byte, hardware oriented and he published 73 | | was trying to be like Byte, hardware oriented and he published 73 |
− | magazines so he was basically focusing on the ham radio people, the | + | Magazine so he was basically focusing on the ham radio people, the |
| do it yourselfers and so on. But they started a software division. | | do it yourselfers and so on. But they started a software division. |
| It was pretty good. They had a lot of the same types of software | | It was pretty good. They had a lot of the same types of software |
| that we did on cassette tape. | | that we did on cassette tape. |
| + | |
| In any event, we really had more of a head to head rivalry on the | | In any event, we really had more of a head to head rivalry on the |
| software than in the magazine publishing. We never really had | | software than in the magazine publishing. We never really had |
Line 2,812: |
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| Betsy: Well they were all young guys. Some of them even still in high | | Betsy: Well they were all young guys. Some of them even still in high |
| school, they would play games for hours and hours and hours, long | | school, they would play games for hours and hours and hours, long |
− | after the reviews were done. It was one, self-contained thing that | + | after the reviews were done. There was one, self-contained thing that |
− | played football, and they played it for hours. I had to take it | + | played football, and, man, they played it for hours. I had to take it |
− | away from them. Like "don't make me be your mother" | + | away from them. Like "don't make me be your mother". |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Was there any drug culture at all? If you read [inaudible 01:22:17] | + | Kevin: Was there any drug culture at all? If you read stories of Atari, if you |
− | and he was cocaine and high everyday and popped...
| + | were a programmer at Atari you used cocaine and pot everyday... |
| | | |
| Betsy: Not that we knew of. [laughs] | | Betsy: Not that we knew of. [laughs] |
| | | |
− | David: The East coast was quite different. | + | David: The East coast was quite different than the west coast. |
| | | |
| Betsy: No there was nothing, really. I don't think so. In fact, my client | | Betsy: No there was nothing, really. I don't think so. In fact, my client |
Line 2,837: |
Line 2,888: |
| them were adaptations of stuff that almost got published in | | them were adaptations of stuff that almost got published in |
| Creative Computing, probably some of them did. Lubar is a funny | | Creative Computing, probably some of them did. Lubar is a funny |
− | guy. When he left and went to work for one of the video gaming | + | guy. |
| + | |
| + | When he left and went to work for one of the video gaming |
| companies, his first big successful game was "Worm Wars." You were | | companies, his first big successful game was "Worm Wars." You were |
− | like, "Worm Wars?" [laughs] | + | like, "Worm Wars?" [laughs] Other people are fighting real serious |
− | Other people are fighting real serious warrior and you are fighting
| + | warriors and you are fighting with worms. |
− | with worms. We just had a different kind of culture, a lot of fun.
| + | |
| + | We just had a different kind of culture, it was just a lot of fun. |
| | | |
| Betsy: Jonny Anderson went to work for A+ in San Francisco. He was one | | Betsy: Jonny Anderson went to work for A+ in San Francisco. He was one |
Line 2,875: |
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| on every day, not really partying but playing the games and | | on every day, not really partying but playing the games and |
| bantering and everything else. | | bantering and everything else. |
− | As they say, at Washington, a real efficient business culture. | + | |
− | Heck, I didn't work for Digital Equipment, which was still a pretty | + | As they say, it wasn't a real efficient business culture. |
− | relaxed place, but AT&T which was anything but. This is as far away | + | Heck, I had worked for Digital Equipment, which was still a pretty |
− | from that kind of corporate culture as you can get, but it worked. | + | relaxed place, but AT&T which was anything but. This was as far away |
| + | from that kind of corporate culture as you can get. But it worked. |
| Didn't make a lot of money, but it worked. | | Didn't make a lot of money, but it worked. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: [inaudible 01:26:58] | + | Kevin: Yeah... [inaudible 01:26:58] |
− | | + | |
| Betsy: Yeah. And I think they appreciated it because they weren't making | | Betsy: Yeah. And I think they appreciated it because they weren't making |
− | tons of money either, but they were having a lot of fun. They | + | tons of money either, but they had a lot of fun. They |
| enjoyed going to work, they really enjoyed it. | | enjoyed going to work, they really enjoyed it. |
| | | |
| + | [section in wrong place?] |
| Kevin: Speaking of Kindle, I've done it but haven't told anybody yet that | | Kevin: Speaking of Kindle, I've done it but haven't told anybody yet that |
| best of Creative Computing too is now available on Kindle. And I | | best of Creative Computing too is now available on Kindle. And I |
Line 2,938: |
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| book, that looks pretty identical to the first one. We will figure | | book, that looks pretty identical to the first one. We will figure |
| out. | | out. |
− | Do you [inaudible 01:30:23] ? But are you familiar with...? | + | [back to original recording] |
| + | |
| + | Kevin: Do you read any computer magazines now? Not even read, but are you familiar with...? |
| | | |
| Betsy: Are there any? | | Betsy: Are there any? |
Line 2,949: |
Line 3,007: |
| several, which is sort of interesting that the dominant Internet | | several, which is sort of interesting that the dominant Internet |
| magazines come from England, but they do. | | magazines come from England, but they do. |
| + | |
| If I want to do something, and I haven't lately, but I wanted to | | If I want to do something, and I haven't lately, but I wanted to |
| get into doing something different or interactive or something with | | get into doing something different or interactive or something with |
Line 2,955: |
Line 3,014: |
| do it in Pearl or HTML, whatever. | | do it in Pearl or HTML, whatever. |
| | | |
− | I converted all of my website, quite a while ago, to XHTML from old | + | I converted all of my website, some time ago, quite a while ago now, |
− | HTML. I did not like any of the programs that generate web pages,
| + | to XHTML from old HTML. I did not like any of the programs that generate |
− | mainly because...Well, today its probably OK, but I felt that
| + | web pages, mainly because... Well, today its probably OK, but I felt that |
| earlier on, they were very inefficient. You'd have this much code | | earlier on, they were very inefficient. You'd have this much code |
| for something and XHTML would write it in five lines. | | for something and XHTML would write it in five lines. |
| + | |
| + | Kevin: Yeah, using Dreamweaver or something, it was terrible. [crosstalk] |
| | | |
− | My old-fashioned [inaudible 01:32:23] said, "You know what, the
| + | David: My old-fashioned [inaudible 01:32:23] the |
− | interpreter or compiler or whatever, has to go through a lot of | + | interpreter or compiler or whatever, has to go through all of |
| that just to pick out what is going to be displayed." My web pages | | that just to pick out what is going to be displayed." My web pages |
− | are very compact and short. They are all XHTML, none of that is | + | are very compact and short. They are all XHTML, none of this |
− | extra [inaudible 01:32:41] style pages and everything else. | + | extra garbage and style pages and everything else. |
| | | |
| Anyway, so that's what I'll pick up a magazine for. I'm was doing a | | Anyway, so that's what I'll pick up a magazine for. I'm was doing a |
| little bit of programming in Pearl and then I said, "No. You know | | little bit of programming in Pearl and then I said, "No. You know |
| what, I can get routines that I can download and I don't have to | | what, I can get routines that I can download and I don't have to |
− | learn it myself. I learned enough to know that I don't want your | + | learn it myself." I learned enough to know that I don't want your |
− | Pearl program." [laughs] Or what is the other one? I don't know. | + | Pearl programmer. [laughs] Or what is the other one? I don't know. |
| I'm right at the point now where I'm wanting to do some more things | | I'm right at the point now where I'm wanting to do some more things |
| that I can't, so I'll probably purchase some more computer | | that I can't, so I'll probably purchase some more computer |
Line 2,989: |
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| Francisco. | | Francisco. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: PC magazine. | + | Kevin: PC Magazine? |
| | | |
| Betsy: PC Magazine, right. And, there was a guy named Tony Gold and there | | Betsy: PC Magazine, right. And, there was a guy named Tony Gold and there |
| was somebody else that I can't remember. There was Tony Gold and | | was somebody else that I can't remember. There was Tony Gold and |
− | this Mr. X started this magazine and they hired...David Banell will | + | this Mr. X started this magazine and they hired... David Banell will |
− | probably tell you all, I don't know all the details but I'm sure he | + | probably tell the real story, I don't know all the details but I'm sure |
− | has it engraved in his brain. | + | he has it engraved in his brain. |
| + | |
| They hired David Banell to run it and I guess several other people, | | They hired David Banell to run it and I guess several other people, |
| and my understanding is, that they told them they were going to | | and my understanding is, that they told them they were going to |
Line 3,013: |
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| out and went across town and started PC World. Apparently their | | out and went across town and started PC World. Apparently their |
| lawyers said, "Don't take anything with you." So they just walked | | lawyers said, "Don't take anything with you." So they just walked |
− | out and left the offices as they were, and Ziff, who now had a | + | out and left the offices as they were, And Ziff, who now had a |
| magazine to get out and no one to do it, sent me out to San | | magazine to get out and no one to do it, sent me out to San |
| Francisco for a couple of weeks and there was like an editorial | | Francisco for a couple of weeks and there was like an editorial |
| assistant and a couple of freelance writers, were the only people | | assistant and a couple of freelance writers, were the only people |
− | left. | + | left. So I had to figure out... |
| | | |
| Kevin: So this is when you became the interim. | | Kevin: So this is when you became the interim. |
Line 3,024: |
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| went out there and walked into this office and had to pull together | | went out there and walked into this office and had to pull together |
| their issue and get it off to the printer. They had a big dummy on | | their issue and get it off to the printer. They had a big dummy on |
− | the wall where everthing... | + | the wall where everything... |
| | | |
− | Kevin: They lay all the... | + | Kevin: They lay all the pages... |
| | | |
− | Betsy: They lay all the impositions where all the pages and the stories | + | Betsy: The lay out of all the positions where all the pages and the stories |
| were going to go and they moved everything around. [laughs] But | | were going to go and they moved everything around. [laughs] But |
| they couldn't resist. | | they couldn't resist. |
Line 3,041: |
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| hired Barry Owen, he moved to New York and he eventually become the | | hired Barry Owen, he moved to New York and he eventually become the |
| editor, because that was who they had. | | editor, because that was who they had. |
| + | |
| I was sort of the editorial director for a while and they said | | I was sort of the editorial director for a while and they said |
| that, "If you were going to do this, you would have to come to the | | that, "If you were going to do this, you would have to come to the |
| city. We are going to really set up an office here and make it | | city. We are going to really set up an office here and make it |
− | real." And I said, "No, I am not going to drive into the city every | + | real." And I said, "Nah, I am not going to drive into the city every |
| day or take the train or the bus or anything." It was a interesting | | day or take the train or the bus or anything." It was a interesting |
| story and we were getting much more interesting version of it from | | story and we were getting much more interesting version of it from |
− | David Barnell, who was there. [laughs] | + | David Bunnell, who was there. [laughs] |
| | | |
| And in the mean time, they were all starting up PC World and taking | | And in the mean time, they were all starting up PC World and taking |
Line 3,053: |
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| possible for PC. That was a big rivalry, obviously. | | possible for PC. That was a big rivalry, obviously. |
| | | |
− | David: And then it created a couple of months of problems at creative too, | + | David: And then it created a couple of months of problems at Creative too, |
| because my editor was gone. I had really gotten very dependent to | | because my editor was gone. I had really gotten very dependent to |
− | rely on her for so many things. "I got to edit this myself." And | + | rely on her for so many things. "I got to edit this myself?" And |
− | then the whole question mark was, OK if PC magazine, is she can | + | then the whole question mark was, OK if PC Magazine, is Betsy goint |
− | stay with it. It was a time of uncertainty. | + | to stay with it? It was a time of uncertainty. |
| | | |
| Betsy: I'm sure it was a bad career move. | | Betsy: I'm sure it was a bad career move. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Yeah. But PC magazine still exist. | + | Kevin: Yeah. But PC Magazine still exists and Creative Computing doesn't. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if I would have existed if I had to | + | Betsy: Yeah, exactly. But I don't know if I would have existed if I had to |
| commute to New York, that's a nasty commute. Millions of people do | | commute to New York, that's a nasty commute. Millions of people do |
| it but, I just didn't want to be one of them. I didn't mean to | | it but, I just didn't want to be one of them. I didn't mean to |
− | interrupt, so back to you. | + | interrupt, so back to your... |
| | | |
− | Kevin: What are you most proud of, or everything you have done? | + | Kevin: What are you most proud of, of everything you've done? What's the |
| + | thing you want on your tombstone? |
| | | |
− | David: OK, that's obviously not a one word answer. Proud is, I am not | + | David: OK, that's obviously not a one word answer. Proud isn't... I am not |
| crazy about it. I guess the fact that I continued to hear from | | crazy about it. I guess the fact that I continued to hear from |
| people that said, "Hey, I got my start in computing from Basic | | people that said, "Hey, I got my start in computing from Basic |
− | computer games or Creative Computing," or something that I had my | + | Computer Games" or Creative Computing, or something that I had my |
| hand in, that makes me feel pretty good. | | hand in, that makes me feel pretty good. |
− | You have a long term, or longer term influence that just what you | + | |
− | do at the time, it's living on. It's not living on forever. Basic | + | You have a long term, or longer term influence than just what you |
| + | do at the time, it's living on. It's no going to live on forever. Basic |
| isn't going to live on forever. But I think the idea that having | | isn't going to live on forever. But I think the idea that having |
| some positive influence on other people, on their lives, on their | | some positive influence on other people, on their lives, on their |
| careers, that's a good. | | careers, that's a good. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: You helped send people into the computer science field. | + | Kevin: You helped send people into the computer sciences field. |
| | | |
| David: And you know the specific individual accomplishments. Yeah, I wrote | | David: And you know the specific individual accomplishments. Yeah, I wrote |
Line 3,087: |
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| program but the routines, are still in use. That's minor compared | | program but the routines, are still in use. That's minor compared |
| to having an influence on people and their career and their | | to having an influence on people and their career and their |
− | outlook, their future. That's way more important. "OK so I wrote a | + | outlook, and their future. That's way more important. "OK so I wrote a |
− | great algorithm, so what." | + | great scheduling algorithm, so what." |
| | | |
| Kevin: And you really think it's the same algorithm that's being used in | | Kevin: And you really think it's the same algorithm that's being used in |
Line 3,107: |
Line 3,172: |
| [cross talk] | | [cross talk] |
| | | |
− | David: Yeah. Well, [inaudible 01:42:31] was mentioning that at breakfast, | + | David: Yeah. Well, you know, Lee Felsenstein was mentioning that at breakfast, |
− | oh gosh that was just yesterday. | + | oh gosh, that was just yesterday. |
| [laughter] | | [laughter] |
| | | |
− | Betsy: It was yesterday [laughs] . | + | Betsy: It was yesterday. [laughs] |
| | | |
| David: [laughs] That kids today don't have any feeling about, or I should | | David: [laughs] That kids today don't have any feeling about, or I should |
Line 3,124: |
Line 3,189: |
| into schools today? No. So anyway, it's just kind of, hopefully | | into schools today? No. So anyway, it's just kind of, hopefully |
| there's been some long term influence. | | there's been some long term influence. |
| + | |
| And what I'm doing now even, which is mainly developing bible | | And what I'm doing now even, which is mainly developing bible |
− | studies for...well, I mostly have guys that have had a drug or | + | studies for... well, I mostly have guys that have had a drug or |
| alcohol addiction problem coming to this. They're in a rescue | | alcohol addiction problem coming to this. They're in a rescue |
| mission. I'm hoping that these studies can have a little bit of an | | mission. I'm hoping that these studies can have a little bit of an |
Line 3,134: |
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| [pause] | | [pause] |
| | | |
| + | [not in recording] |
| Those are terrible copies. | | Those are terrible copies. |
| | | |
Line 3,142: |
Line 3,209: |
| David: There's Carl. | | David: There's Carl. |
| [pause] | | [pause] |
| + | |
| + | [back to recording] |
| | | |
| Kevin: Do have anything left, like how many subscribers you had over time? | | Kevin: Do have anything left, like how many subscribers you had over time? |
− | Is that data around anymore? How many newsstand copies you had? I | + | Is that data around anymore? Or how many newsstand copies you had? I |
| assume that is a lot. | | assume that is a lot. |
| | | |
Line 3,151: |
Line 3,220: |
| three magazines that they expected to continue to publish, PC, | | three magazines that they expected to continue to publish, PC, |
| Apple's A+, or Mac User. | | Apple's A+, or Mac User. |
| + | |
| I'm guessing that most people went with PC. One of the reasons | | I'm guessing that most people went with PC. One of the reasons |
| actually was Ziff's rationale at that point was, PC World had | | actually was Ziff's rationale at that point was, PC World had |
Line 3,174: |
Line 3,244: |
| | | |
| David: Then they started publishing it twice a month. The nudge that the | | David: Then they started publishing it twice a month. The nudge that the |
− | subscriber base at Creative, gave to PC really, separated them | + | subscriber base at Creative gave to PC really separated them |
− | completely from PC World. They had their reasons. | + | completely from PC World. So they had their reasons. |
| | | |
| Kevin: OK. This is a chart of the page count of Creative Computing over | | Kevin: OK. This is a chart of the page count of Creative Computing over |
Line 3,190: |
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| | | |
| David: They weren't promoting, no subscription promotion. They were saving | | David: They weren't promoting, no subscription promotion. They were saving |
− | their money. If you don't promote the subscriptions, you're not | + | their money. |
− | going to get them.
| + | |
| + | Kevin: Sure. |
| + | |
| + | David: If you don't promote the subscriptions, you're not going to get them. |
| | | |
| Betsy: This is page count. | | Betsy: This is page count. |
Line 3,202: |
Line 3,275: |
| | | |
| Kevin: I just thought I'd do a comparison, even though that's not really | | Kevin: I just thought I'd do a comparison, even though that's not really |
− | what I'm doing here. In the beginning, you guys were bimonthly and | + | what I'm doing here. |
− | they were monthly. I couldn't know how to do it accurately. Their | + | |
| + | In the beginning, you guys were bimonthly and they [Kilobyte] were |
| + | monthly. I couldn't know how to do it accurately. Their |
| page count's actually higher, because they were doing twice as | | page count's actually higher, because they were doing twice as |
| much. I don't have all the data here. You guys tended to publish | | much. I don't have all the data here. You guys tended to publish |
Line 3,214: |
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| editorial content. | | editorial content. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: [inaudible 01:50:02] , a good example. | + | Betsy: Computer Shopper, yeah, a good example. |
| | | |
− | David: That's exactly right. Even what the guys that bought Military | + | David: That's exactly right. Even the guys that bought Military |
− | Vehicles, they just went over so heavily to...I always believe that | + | Vehicles, they just went over so heavily to... I always believe that |
| you should have at least one-third editorial content, preferably | | you should have at least one-third editorial content, preferably |
| more. They dropped down to 20 percent to edit. | | more. They dropped down to 20 percent to edit. |
Line 3,238: |
Line 3,313: |
| in really. You've got the IBM PC, and everybody's producing a PC | | in really. You've got the IBM PC, and everybody's producing a PC |
| clone. Apple kept going, and Atari, and Commodore attempted to. | | clone. Apple kept going, and Atari, and Commodore attempted to. |
− | If you were to start a computer company at that point, with a new | + | But yeah, if you were to start a computer company at that point, |
− | computer, yeah, you'd need something to give your user base
| + | with a new computer, yeah, you'd need something to give your user |
− | something to do with it, more than just what the manufacturer was | + | base something to do with it, more than just what the manufacturer |
− | selling. So, that's probably accurate. What do you think? | + | was selling. So, that's probably accurate. What do you think? |
| | | |
| Betsy: Yeah, I think it's accurate. That's what people started to expect. | | Betsy: Yeah, I think it's accurate. That's what people started to expect. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Yeah. Another chord of the same issue which we've kind of touched | + | Kevin: Yeah. Another quote in the same issue which we've kind of touched |
− | on from Tom Dwyer. This is in 1984. He's saying, "Computer | + | on from Tom Dwyer, this is in 1984, he's saying, "Computer |
| magazines used to have personality [laughter] and now they don't." | | magazines used to have personality [laughter] and now they don't." |
| Now, they really don't. | | Now, they really don't. |
Line 3,261: |
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| | | |
| David: Tom Dwyer? He was at University of Pittsburgh. He came up with all | | David: Tom Dwyer? He was at University of Pittsburgh. He came up with all |
− | those neat applications. He and Margo...He had the best basic | + | those neat applications. He and Margo... He had the best BASIC |
| primer of anybody, in fact the only one that both Kemeny and Kurtz | | primer of anybody, in fact the only one that both Kemeny and Kurtz |
| endorsed outside of their own material. He had really written some | | endorsed outside of their own material. He had really written some |
− | good Basic books. | + | good BASIC books. |
| | | |
| Kevin: I'm just finishing up here. The Internet says you were born in | | Kevin: I'm just finishing up here. The Internet says you were born in |
Line 3,303: |
Line 3,378: |
| Betsy: I tried keeping this professional thing and it was just way too | | Betsy: I tried keeping this professional thing and it was just way too |
| confusing, since that really wasn't my name anyway. That was my | | confusing, since that really wasn't my name anyway. That was my |
− | first husband's name, and then just...this is way too complicated. | + | first husband's name, and then just... "this is way too complicated." |
| | | |
| Kevin: My wife kept her maiden name and now she wishes she hadn't. It's | | Kevin: My wife kept her maiden name and now she wishes she hadn't. It's |
Line 3,317: |
Line 3,392: |
| Betsy: You the most prepared interviewer ever. | | Betsy: You the most prepared interviewer ever. |
| | | |
| + | [not in recording] |
| David: I jotted down a couple of notes. Nope. | | David: I jotted down a couple of notes. Nope. |
| | | |
| Betsy: Got everything? | | Betsy: Got everything? |
| + | [back to recording] |
| | | |
| David: What's your thinking? Because originally you were talking to me | | David: What's your thinking? Because originally you were talking to me |
Line 3,339: |
Line 3,416: |
| | | |
| Betsy: That's true. We asked Carl Helmers if Wayne was still alive and he | | Betsy: That's true. We asked Carl Helmers if Wayne was still alive and he |
− | was [inaudible 01:56:06] . | + | was "huh, dunno". |
| | | |
| David: Actually, there was another guy up there that published a computer | | David: Actually, there was another guy up there that published a computer |
Line 3,348: |
Line 3,425: |
| David: Up in New Hampshire, Peterborough. It was one of the earlier would- | | David: Up in New Hampshire, Peterborough. It was one of the earlier would- |
| be competitors to Datamation. So, it was much earlier. | | be competitors to Datamation. So, it was much earlier. |
| + | |
| He was absolutely totally convinced about the Kennedy assassination | | He was absolutely totally convinced about the Kennedy assassination |
| and published a computer analysis of all the photos and everything | | and published a computer analysis of all the photos and everything |
Line 3,358: |
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| it's going to seem like a compare and contrast thing." That's not | | it's going to seem like a compare and contrast thing." That's not |
| what I want to do. | | what I want to do. |
| + | |
| Now I'm thinking that this will be a project about the earliest | | Now I'm thinking that this will be a project about the earliest |
| computer magazines, the first computer magazines. That way, I can, | | computer magazines, the first computer magazines. That way, I can, |
− | whatever, four or five chapters. One on Creative, and maybe Byte. | + | whatever, four or five chapters. One on Kilobaud, one on Creative, |
− | I'm meeting with the editor of Byte in a couple of weeks at an
| + | and maybe Byte I'm meeting with the editor of Byte in a couple of |
− | event, maybe Interface Age or one of the other ones.
| + | weeks at an event, maybe Interface Age or one of the other ones. |
| | | |
| David: If you can find Bob Jones, that would be an interesting contrast. | | David: If you can find Bob Jones, that would be an interesting contrast. |
Line 3,373: |
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| Betsy: Oh, Dr. Dobbs... | | Betsy: Oh, Dr. Dobbs... |
| | | |
− | David: Jim Warren! Oh my goodness. That would give you another perspective | + | David: Oh Jim Warren! Oh my goodness. That would give you another perspective |
| altogether. | | altogether. |
| | | |
Line 3,385: |
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| | | |
| David: Oh, boy. Did they ever! Yes, yes. Jim also was the one that started | | David: Oh, boy. Did they ever! Yes, yes. Jim also was the one that started |
− | the West Coast computer fairs. He's a very capable guy. Dr. Dobb's | + | the West Coast Computer Fairs. He's a very capable guy. Dr. Dobb's |
| journal was in a sense, well, you've probably seen it. You have, | | journal was in a sense, well, you've probably seen it. You have, |
| right? OK, so you know. | | right? OK, so you know. |
| + | |
| That's really low level programming rather than higher languages. | | That's really low level programming rather than higher languages. |
| We're talking about machine languages, assembly language, | | We're talking about machine languages, assembly language, |
− | programming, and there. It was sort of like Microsystems was to | + | programming, and there. |
− | Byte. Microsystems, for the really serious hardware guy. Dr. Dobbs
| + | |
− | was for the really serious programmer, compared to Creative which
| + | It was sort of like Microsystems was to Byte. Microsystems, for the |
− | was for people who just wanted to type something in that would
| + | really serious hardware guy. Dr. Dobbs was for the really serious |
− | work.
| + | programmer, compared to Creative which was for people who just wanted |
| + | to type something in that would work. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: [inaudible 01:59:35] basic right. Yeah. | + | Kevin: Lets play [inaudible 01:59:35] in BASIC, right. Yeah. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Dr. Dobbs. That was a totally different [inaudible 01:59:43] | + | Betsy: Dr. Dobbs. That was sort of like a totally different... it wasn't a |
| competitor. | | competitor. |
| | | |
Line 3,407: |
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| | | |
| David: Oh yeah, actually they did, and it kept going for a long time | | David: Oh yeah, actually they did, and it kept going for a long time |
− | because it was a small little nitch magazine. But, yeah, Jim Warren | + | because it was a small little niche magazine. But, yeah, Jim Warren |
− | would be an interesting guy, very interesting guy early on. I don't | + | would be an interesting guy, very interesting guy, early on. I don't |
− | know about Albert because you say he published more tabloid | + | know about Albrecht because you say he published more tabloid |
| newspapers. I don't know if they ever really published any magazine | | newspapers. I don't know if they ever really published any magazine |
| size thing or not. Probably not, but it would give me a totally | | size thing or not. Probably not, but it would give me a totally |
− | different perspective because they are coming from the west coast, | + | different perspective because they're coming from the west coast, |
− | looser or whatever. | + | looser, or whatever. |
| | | |
| Kevin: That sounded pretty loose. | | Kevin: That sounded pretty loose. |
Line 3,419: |
Line 3,500: |
| David: Yeah nothing compared to that. | | David: Yeah nothing compared to that. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: I think he was sort of in rebellion when he started working at | + | Betsy: I think he was sort of in rebellion when he started working full time |
− | Creative Computing because he was coming off of AT&T where he had to | + | at Creative Computing because he was coming off of AT&T where he had |
− | wear a suit to work every day. So the first thing he did was burn | + | to wear a suit to work every day. So the first thing he did was burn |
| his suits and wear t-shirt and jeans way before anybody was doing | | his suits and wear t-shirt and jeans way before anybody was doing |
| that. | | that. |
| | | |
| David: I went extremely in the other direction, yeah I did, but who else | | David: I went extremely in the other direction, yeah I did, but who else |
− | real early. Personal computing which I think David Barnell somehow | + | real early. Personal Computing, which I think David Barnell somehow |
| involved in it at some point in there. Because they moved from the | | involved in it at some point in there. Because they moved from the |
− | west coast to New Jersey, they were bought by...who was that? It | + | west coast to New Jersey, and they were bought by... who was that? It |
| was mostly a company that published things like hardware age and | | was mostly a company that published things like hardware age and |
| advertiser-driven magazines. What was the name? | | advertiser-driven magazines. What was the name? |
Line 3,436: |
Line 3,517: |
| David: Oh, gosh. Begins with an 'H'. | | David: Oh, gosh. Begins with an 'H'. |
| | | |
− | Betsy: Halshep | + | Betsy: Halshep? |
| | | |
− | David: No. Anyway, when they brought personal computing...I think Barnell | + | David: No. Anyway, when they brought Personal Computing... I think Barnell |
| maybe even started it, and then they moved it to New Jersey, and | | maybe even started it, and then they moved it to New Jersey, and |
| then David said "I'm not going to New Jersey. I'm a west coast | | then David said "I'm not going to New Jersey. I'm a west coast |
Line 3,445: |
Line 3,526: |
| totally advertiser driven. A press release is a product review, as | | totally advertiser driven. A press release is a product review, as |
| far as they were concerned. | | far as they were concerned. |
| + | |
| They had some interesting stuff. They were a competitor only in | | They had some interesting stuff. They were a competitor only in |
| name, but also because they got the advertising. "I think I'm going | | name, but also because they got the advertising. "I think I'm going |
− | to advertise." "Oh! We're going to publish a wonderful review! Give | + | to advertise"... "Oh! We're going to publish a wonderful review! Give |
− | it to us." And so they were early, and they made money. There were | + | it to us." And so they were early, and they made money. |
− | a bunch of flash-in-the-pan magazines that lasted 2 or 3 or maybe 6
| + | |
− | issues, but nobody...
| + | There were a bunch of flash-in-the-pan magazines that lasted 2 or 3 |
| + | or maybe 6 ssues, but nobody... |
| | | |
| Kevin: But only one in seven made it, so... | | Kevin: But only one in seven made it, so... |
Line 3,458: |
Line 3,541: |
| David: That's right, exactly. I can't remember the name of some of these | | David: That's right, exactly. I can't remember the name of some of these |
| ones, but there was a very successful big magazine that published | | ones, but there was a very successful big magazine that published |
− | all Apple...reviews of Apple stuff. What was that one? Apple by | + | all Apple... reviews of Apple stuff. What was that one? Apple by |
| themselves spawned I'd guess half a dozen magazines. | | themselves spawned I'd guess half a dozen magazines. |
| | | |
− | Kevin: Inquest, and Insider, and Apple...a bunch of others there. | + | Kevin: There was A+, and Insider, and Apple... a bunch of others. |
| | | |
| David: Right. Actually, there's one that I can't think of the name of, it | | David: Right. Actually, there's one that I can't think of the name of, it |
| turned out, it was bigger and thicker and creative. They were | | turned out, it was bigger and thicker and creative. They were |
| publishing a lot of stuff, but again, it would all be positive and | | publishing a lot of stuff, but again, it would all be positive and |
− | so they really killed us on getting advertising. We had been a | + | so they really killed us on getting advertising. We had been a leading |
| publisher of Apple material for a while. Then all these others came | | publisher of Apple material for a while. Then all these others came |
| along. That one, whatever it was, was really took a lot of | | along. That one, whatever it was, was really took a lot of |
| advertising from us. I'll think about it. | | advertising from us. I'll think about it. |
| | | |
| + | [not in recording] |
| Kevin: You'll remember. | | Kevin: You'll remember. |
| | | |
− | David: I'll remember some of this. When it all settled out, you came back | + | David: I'll remember some of this. |
− | down to eight or nine, but the ones we're talking about...
| + | [back to recording] |
| + | |
| + | David: When it all settled out, you came back down to eight or nine, |
| + | but the ones we're talking about... |
| | | |
| Kevin: Well, at one point there was 200. | | Kevin: Well, at one point there was 200. |