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Line 3,014: − + − HTML. I did not like any of the programs that generate web pages,+ − mainly because...Well, today its probably OK, but I felt that+ + + − My old-fashioned [inaudible 01:32:23] said, "You know what, the+ − + − + − + − + − + Line 3,039:
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edits complete for now
early on forced him not to use the name byte at all.
early on forced him not to use the name byte at all.
Betsy: So it was byte.
Betsy: I'm sure it was Byte.
[laughter]
[laughter]
competition with him than in the magazine itself, because again, he
competition with him than in the magazine itself, because again, he
was trying to be like Byte, hardware oriented and he published 73
was trying to be like Byte, hardware oriented and he published 73
Magazine so he was basically focusing on the ham radio people, the
do it yourselfers and so on. But they started a software division.
do it yourselfers and so on. But they started a software division.
It was pretty good. They had a lot of the same types of software
It was pretty good. They had a lot of the same types of software
that we did on cassette tape.
that we did on cassette tape.
In any event, we really had more of a head to head rivalry on the
In any event, we really had more of a head to head rivalry on the
software than in the magazine publishing. We never really had
software than in the magazine publishing. We never really had
Betsy: Well they were all young guys. Some of them even still in high
Betsy: Well they were all young guys. Some of them even still in high
school, they would play games for hours and hours and hours, long
school, they would play games for hours and hours and hours, long
after the reviews were done. It was one, self-contained thing that
after the reviews were done. There was one, self-contained thing that
played football, and they played it for hours. I had to take it
played football, and, man, they played it for hours. I had to take it
away from them. Like "don't make me be your mother"
away from them. Like "don't make me be your mother".
Kevin: Was there any drug culture at all? If you read [inaudible 01:22:17]
Kevin: Was there any drug culture at all? If you read stories of Atari, if you
were a programmer at Atari you used cocaine and pot everyday...
Betsy: Not that we knew of. [laughs]
Betsy: Not that we knew of. [laughs]
David: The East coast was quite different.
David: The East coast was quite different than the west coast.
Betsy: No there was nothing, really. I don't think so. In fact, my client
Betsy: No there was nothing, really. I don't think so. In fact, my client
them were adaptations of stuff that almost got published in
them were adaptations of stuff that almost got published in
Creative Computing, probably some of them did. Lubar is a funny
Creative Computing, probably some of them did. Lubar is a funny
guy. When he left and went to work for one of the video gaming
guy.
When he left and went to work for one of the video gaming
companies, his first big successful game was "Worm Wars." You were
companies, his first big successful game was "Worm Wars." You were
like, "Worm Wars?" [laughs]
like, "Worm Wars?" [laughs] Other people are fighting real serious
warriors and you are fighting with worms.
We just had a different kind of culture, it was just a lot of fun.
Betsy: Jonny Anderson went to work for A+ in San Francisco. He was one
Betsy: Jonny Anderson went to work for A+ in San Francisco. He was one
on every day, not really partying but playing the games and
on every day, not really partying but playing the games and
bantering and everything else.
bantering and everything else.
As they say, at Washington, a real efficient business culture.
Heck, I didn't work for Digital Equipment, which was still a pretty
As they say, it wasn't a real efficient business culture.
relaxed place, but AT&T which was anything but. This is as far away
Heck, I had worked for Digital Equipment, which was still a pretty
from that kind of corporate culture as you can get, but it worked.
relaxed place, but AT&T which was anything but. This was as far away
from that kind of corporate culture as you can get. But it worked.
Didn't make a lot of money, but it worked.
Didn't make a lot of money, but it worked.
Kevin: [inaudible 01:26:58]
Kevin: Yeah... [inaudible 01:26:58]
Betsy: Yeah. And I think they appreciated it because they weren't making
Betsy: Yeah. And I think they appreciated it because they weren't making
tons of money either, but they were having a lot of fun. They
tons of money either, but they had a lot of fun. They
enjoyed going to work, they really enjoyed it.
enjoyed going to work, they really enjoyed it.
[section in wrong place?]
Kevin: Speaking of Kindle, I've done it but haven't told anybody yet that
Kevin: Speaking of Kindle, I've done it but haven't told anybody yet that
best of Creative Computing too is now available on Kindle. And I
best of Creative Computing too is now available on Kindle. And I
book, that looks pretty identical to the first one. We will figure
book, that looks pretty identical to the first one. We will figure
out.
out.
Do you [inaudible 01:30:23] ? But are you familiar with...?
[back to original recording]
Kevin: Do you read any computer magazines now? Not even read, but are you familiar with...?
Betsy: Are there any?
Betsy: Are there any?
several, which is sort of interesting that the dominant Internet
several, which is sort of interesting that the dominant Internet
magazines come from England, but they do.
magazines come from England, but they do.
If I want to do something, and I haven't lately, but I wanted to
If I want to do something, and I haven't lately, but I wanted to
get into doing something different or interactive or something with
get into doing something different or interactive or something with
do it in Pearl or HTML, whatever.
do it in Pearl or HTML, whatever.
I converted all of my website, quite a while ago, to XHTML from old
I converted all of my website, some time ago, quite a while ago now,
to XHTML from old HTML. I did not like any of the programs that generate
web pages, mainly because... Well, today its probably OK, but I felt that
earlier on, they were very inefficient. You'd have this much code
earlier on, they were very inefficient. You'd have this much code
for something and XHTML would write it in five lines.
for something and XHTML would write it in five lines.
Kevin: Yeah, using Dreamweaver or something, it was terrible. [crosstalk]
David: My old-fashioned [inaudible 01:32:23] the
interpreter or compiler or whatever, has to go through a lot of
interpreter or compiler or whatever, has to go through all of
that just to pick out what is going to be displayed." My web pages
that just to pick out what is going to be displayed." My web pages
are very compact and short. They are all XHTML, none of that is
are very compact and short. They are all XHTML, none of this
extra [inaudible 01:32:41] style pages and everything else.
extra garbage and style pages and everything else.
Anyway, so that's what I'll pick up a magazine for. I'm was doing a
Anyway, so that's what I'll pick up a magazine for. I'm was doing a
little bit of programming in Pearl and then I said, "No. You know
little bit of programming in Pearl and then I said, "No. You know
what, I can get routines that I can download and I don't have to
what, I can get routines that I can download and I don't have to
learn it myself. I learned enough to know that I don't want your
learn it myself." I learned enough to know that I don't want your
Pearl program." [laughs] Or what is the other one? I don't know.
Pearl programmer. [laughs] Or what is the other one? I don't know.
I'm right at the point now where I'm wanting to do some more things
I'm right at the point now where I'm wanting to do some more things
that I can't, so I'll probably purchase some more computer
that I can't, so I'll probably purchase some more computer
Francisco.
Francisco.
Kevin: PC magazine.
Kevin: PC Magazine?
Betsy: PC Magazine, right. And, there was a guy named Tony Gold and there
Betsy: PC Magazine, right. And, there was a guy named Tony Gold and there
was somebody else that I can't remember. There was Tony Gold and
was somebody else that I can't remember. There was Tony Gold and
this Mr. X started this magazine and they hired...David Banell will
this Mr. X started this magazine and they hired... David Banell will
probably tell you all, I don't know all the details but I'm sure he
probably tell the real story, I don't know all the details but I'm sure
has it engraved in his brain.
he has it engraved in his brain.
They hired David Banell to run it and I guess several other people,
They hired David Banell to run it and I guess several other people,
and my understanding is, that they told them they were going to
and my understanding is, that they told them they were going to
out and went across town and started PC World. Apparently their
out and went across town and started PC World. Apparently their
lawyers said, "Don't take anything with you." So they just walked
lawyers said, "Don't take anything with you." So they just walked
out and left the offices as they were, and Ziff, who now had a
out and left the offices as they were, And Ziff, who now had a
magazine to get out and no one to do it, sent me out to San
magazine to get out and no one to do it, sent me out to San
Francisco for a couple of weeks and there was like an editorial
Francisco for a couple of weeks and there was like an editorial
assistant and a couple of freelance writers, were the only people
assistant and a couple of freelance writers, were the only people
left.
left. So I had to figure out...
Kevin: So this is when you became the interim.
Kevin: So this is when you became the interim.
went out there and walked into this office and had to pull together
went out there and walked into this office and had to pull together
their issue and get it off to the printer. They had a big dummy on
their issue and get it off to the printer. They had a big dummy on
the wall where everthing...
the wall where everything...
Kevin: They lay all the...
Kevin: They lay all the pages...
Betsy: They lay all the impositions where all the pages and the stories
Betsy: The lay out of all the positions where all the pages and the stories
were going to go and they moved everything around. [laughs] But
were going to go and they moved everything around. [laughs] But
they couldn't resist.
they couldn't resist.
hired Barry Owen, he moved to New York and he eventually become the
hired Barry Owen, he moved to New York and he eventually become the
editor, because that was who they had.
editor, because that was who they had.
I was sort of the editorial director for a while and they said
I was sort of the editorial director for a while and they said
that, "If you were going to do this, you would have to come to the
that, "If you were going to do this, you would have to come to the
city. We are going to really set up an office here and make it
city. We are going to really set up an office here and make it
real." And I said, "No, I am not going to drive into the city every
real." And I said, "Nah, I am not going to drive into the city every
day or take the train or the bus or anything." It was a interesting
day or take the train or the bus or anything." It was a interesting
story and we were getting much more interesting version of it from
story and we were getting much more interesting version of it from
David Barnell, who was there. [laughs]
David Bunnell, who was there. [laughs]
And in the mean time, they were all starting up PC World and taking
And in the mean time, they were all starting up PC World and taking
possible for PC. That was a big rivalry, obviously.
possible for PC. That was a big rivalry, obviously.
David: And then it created a couple of months of problems at creative too,
David: And then it created a couple of months of problems at Creative too,
because my editor was gone. I had really gotten very dependent to
because my editor was gone. I had really gotten very dependent to
rely on her for so many things. "I got to edit this myself." And
rely on her for so many things. "I got to edit this myself?" And
then the whole question mark was, OK if PC magazine, is she can
then the whole question mark was, OK if PC Magazine, is Betsy goint
stay with it. It was a time of uncertainty.
to stay with it? It was a time of uncertainty.
Betsy: I'm sure it was a bad career move.
Betsy: I'm sure it was a bad career move.
Kevin: Yeah. But PC magazine still exist.
Kevin: Yeah. But PC Magazine still exists and Creative Computing doesn't.
Betsy: Yeah, exactly. I don't know if I would have existed if I had to
Betsy: Yeah, exactly. But I don't know if I would have existed if I had to
commute to New York, that's a nasty commute. Millions of people do
commute to New York, that's a nasty commute. Millions of people do
it but, I just didn't want to be one of them. I didn't mean to
it but, I just didn't want to be one of them. I didn't mean to
interrupt, so back to you.
interrupt, so back to your...
Kevin: What are you most proud of, or everything you have done?
Kevin: What are you most proud of, of everything you've done? What's the
thing you want on your tombstone?
David: OK, that's obviously not a one word answer. Proud is, I am not
David: OK, that's obviously not a one word answer. Proud isn't... I am not
crazy about it. I guess the fact that I continued to hear from
crazy about it. I guess the fact that I continued to hear from
people that said, "Hey, I got my start in computing from Basic
people that said, "Hey, I got my start in computing from Basic
Computer Games" or Creative Computing, or something that I had my
hand in, that makes me feel pretty good.
hand in, that makes me feel pretty good.
You have a long term, or longer term influence that just what you
do at the time, it's living on. It's not living on forever. Basic
You have a long term, or longer term influence than just what you
do at the time, it's living on. It's no going to live on forever. Basic
isn't going to live on forever. But I think the idea that having
isn't going to live on forever. But I think the idea that having
some positive influence on other people, on their lives, on their
some positive influence on other people, on their lives, on their
careers, that's a good.
careers, that's a good.
Kevin: You helped send people into the computer science field.
Kevin: You helped send people into the computer sciences field.
David: And you know the specific individual accomplishments. Yeah, I wrote
David: And you know the specific individual accomplishments. Yeah, I wrote
program but the routines, are still in use. That's minor compared
program but the routines, are still in use. That's minor compared
to having an influence on people and their career and their
to having an influence on people and their career and their
outlook, their future. That's way more important. "OK so I wrote a
outlook, and their future. That's way more important. "OK so I wrote a
great algorithm, so what."
great scheduling algorithm, so what."
Kevin: And you really think it's the same algorithm that's being used in
Kevin: And you really think it's the same algorithm that's being used in
[cross talk]
[cross talk]
David: Yeah. Well, [inaudible 01:42:31] was mentioning that at breakfast,
David: Yeah. Well, you know, Lee Felsenstein was mentioning that at breakfast,
oh gosh that was just yesterday.
oh gosh, that was just yesterday.
[laughter]
[laughter]
Betsy: It was yesterday [laughs] .
Betsy: It was yesterday. [laughs]
David: [laughs] That kids today don't have any feeling about, or I should
David: [laughs] That kids today don't have any feeling about, or I should
into schools today? No. So anyway, it's just kind of, hopefully
into schools today? No. So anyway, it's just kind of, hopefully
there's been some long term influence.
there's been some long term influence.
And what I'm doing now even, which is mainly developing bible
And what I'm doing now even, which is mainly developing bible
studies for...well, I mostly have guys that have had a drug or
studies for... well, I mostly have guys that have had a drug or
alcohol addiction problem coming to this. They're in a rescue
alcohol addiction problem coming to this. They're in a rescue
mission. I'm hoping that these studies can have a little bit of an
mission. I'm hoping that these studies can have a little bit of an
[pause]
[pause]
[not in recording]
Those are terrible copies.
Those are terrible copies.
David: There's Carl.
David: There's Carl.
[pause]
[pause]
[back to recording]
Kevin: Do have anything left, like how many subscribers you had over time?
Kevin: Do have anything left, like how many subscribers you had over time?
Is that data around anymore? How many newsstand copies you had? I
Is that data around anymore? Or how many newsstand copies you had? I
assume that is a lot.
assume that is a lot.
three magazines that they expected to continue to publish, PC,
three magazines that they expected to continue to publish, PC,
Apple's A+, or Mac User.
Apple's A+, or Mac User.
I'm guessing that most people went with PC. One of the reasons
I'm guessing that most people went with PC. One of the reasons
actually was Ziff's rationale at that point was, PC World had
actually was Ziff's rationale at that point was, PC World had
David: Then they started publishing it twice a month. The nudge that the
David: Then they started publishing it twice a month. The nudge that the
subscriber base at Creative, gave to PC really, separated them
subscriber base at Creative gave to PC really separated them
completely from PC World. They had their reasons.
completely from PC World. So they had their reasons.
Kevin: OK. This is a chart of the page count of Creative Computing over
Kevin: OK. This is a chart of the page count of Creative Computing over
David: They weren't promoting, no subscription promotion. They were saving
David: They weren't promoting, no subscription promotion. They were saving
their money. If you don't promote the subscriptions, you're not
their money.
Kevin: Sure.
David: If you don't promote the subscriptions, you're not going to get them.
Betsy: This is page count.
Betsy: This is page count.
Kevin: I just thought I'd do a comparison, even though that's not really
Kevin: I just thought I'd do a comparison, even though that's not really
what I'm doing here. In the beginning, you guys were bimonthly and
what I'm doing here.
In the beginning, you guys were bimonthly and they [Kilobyte] were
monthly. I couldn't know how to do it accurately. Their
page count's actually higher, because they were doing twice as
page count's actually higher, because they were doing twice as
much. I don't have all the data here. You guys tended to publish
much. I don't have all the data here. You guys tended to publish
editorial content.
editorial content.
Betsy: [inaudible 01:50:02] , a good example.
Betsy: Computer Shopper, yeah, a good example.
David: That's exactly right. Even what the guys that bought Military
David: That's exactly right. Even the guys that bought Military
Vehicles, they just went over so heavily to...I always believe that
Vehicles, they just went over so heavily to... I always believe that
you should have at least one-third editorial content, preferably
you should have at least one-third editorial content, preferably
more. They dropped down to 20 percent to edit.
more. They dropped down to 20 percent to edit.
in really. You've got the IBM PC, and everybody's producing a PC
in really. You've got the IBM PC, and everybody's producing a PC
clone. Apple kept going, and Atari, and Commodore attempted to.
clone. Apple kept going, and Atari, and Commodore attempted to.
But yeah, if you were to start a computer company at that point,
with a new computer, yeah, you'd need something to give your user
something to do with it, more than just what the manufacturer was
base something to do with it, more than just what the manufacturer
selling. So, that's probably accurate. What do you think?
was selling. So, that's probably accurate. What do you think?
Betsy: Yeah, I think it's accurate. That's what people started to expect.
Betsy: Yeah, I think it's accurate. That's what people started to expect.
Kevin: Yeah. Another chord of the same issue which we've kind of touched
Kevin: Yeah. Another quote in the same issue which we've kind of touched
on from Tom Dwyer. This is in 1984. He's saying, "Computer
on from Tom Dwyer, this is in 1984, he's saying, "Computer
magazines used to have personality [laughter] and now they don't."
magazines used to have personality [laughter] and now they don't."
Now, they really don't.
Now, they really don't.
David: Tom Dwyer? He was at University of Pittsburgh. He came up with all
David: Tom Dwyer? He was at University of Pittsburgh. He came up with all
those neat applications. He and Margo...He had the best basic
those neat applications. He and Margo... He had the best BASIC
primer of anybody, in fact the only one that both Kemeny and Kurtz
primer of anybody, in fact the only one that both Kemeny and Kurtz
endorsed outside of their own material. He had really written some
endorsed outside of their own material. He had really written some
good Basic books.
good BASIC books.
Kevin: I'm just finishing up here. The Internet says you were born in
Kevin: I'm just finishing up here. The Internet says you were born in
Betsy: I tried keeping this professional thing and it was just way too
Betsy: I tried keeping this professional thing and it was just way too
confusing, since that really wasn't my name anyway. That was my
confusing, since that really wasn't my name anyway. That was my
first husband's name, and then just...this is way too complicated.
first husband's name, and then just... "this is way too complicated."
Kevin: My wife kept her maiden name and now she wishes she hadn't. It's
Kevin: My wife kept her maiden name and now she wishes she hadn't. It's
Betsy: You the most prepared interviewer ever.
Betsy: You the most prepared interviewer ever.
[not in recording]
David: I jotted down a couple of notes. Nope.
David: I jotted down a couple of notes. Nope.
Betsy: Got everything?
Betsy: Got everything?
[back to recording]
David: What's your thinking? Because originally you were talking to me
David: What's your thinking? Because originally you were talking to me
Betsy: That's true. We asked Carl Helmers if Wayne was still alive and he
Betsy: That's true. We asked Carl Helmers if Wayne was still alive and he
was [inaudible 01:56:06] .
was "huh, dunno".
David: Actually, there was another guy up there that published a computer
David: Actually, there was another guy up there that published a computer
David: Up in New Hampshire, Peterborough. It was one of the earlier would-
David: Up in New Hampshire, Peterborough. It was one of the earlier would-
be competitors to Datamation. So, it was much earlier.
be competitors to Datamation. So, it was much earlier.
He was absolutely totally convinced about the Kennedy assassination
He was absolutely totally convinced about the Kennedy assassination
and published a computer analysis of all the photos and everything
and published a computer analysis of all the photos and everything
it's going to seem like a compare and contrast thing." That's not
it's going to seem like a compare and contrast thing." That's not
what I want to do.
what I want to do.
Now I'm thinking that this will be a project about the earliest
Now I'm thinking that this will be a project about the earliest
computer magazines, the first computer magazines. That way, I can,
computer magazines, the first computer magazines. That way, I can,
whatever, four or five chapters. One on Creative, and maybe Byte.
whatever, four or five chapters. One on Kilobaud, one on Creative,
and maybe Byte I'm meeting with the editor of Byte in a couple of
weeks at an event, maybe Interface Age or one of the other ones.
David: If you can find Bob Jones, that would be an interesting contrast.
David: If you can find Bob Jones, that would be an interesting contrast.
Betsy: Oh, Dr. Dobbs...
Betsy: Oh, Dr. Dobbs...
David: Jim Warren! Oh my goodness. That would give you another perspective
David: Oh Jim Warren! Oh my goodness. That would give you another perspective
altogether.
altogether.
David: Oh, boy. Did they ever! Yes, yes. Jim also was the one that started
David: Oh, boy. Did they ever! Yes, yes. Jim also was the one that started
the West Coast computer fairs. He's a very capable guy. Dr. Dobb's
the West Coast Computer Fairs. He's a very capable guy. Dr. Dobb's
journal was in a sense, well, you've probably seen it. You have,
journal was in a sense, well, you've probably seen it. You have,
right? OK, so you know.
right? OK, so you know.
That's really low level programming rather than higher languages.
That's really low level programming rather than higher languages.
We're talking about machine languages, assembly language,
We're talking about machine languages, assembly language,
programming, and there. It was sort of like Microsystems was to
programming, and there.
It was sort of like Microsystems was to Byte. Microsystems, for the
really serious hardware guy. Dr. Dobbs was for the really serious
programmer, compared to Creative which was for people who just wanted
to type something in that would work.
Kevin: [inaudible 01:59:35] basic right. Yeah.
Kevin: Lets play [inaudible 01:59:35] in BASIC, right. Yeah.
Betsy: Dr. Dobbs. That was a totally different [inaudible 01:59:43]
Betsy: Dr. Dobbs. That was sort of like a totally different... it wasn't a
competitor.
competitor.
David: Oh yeah, actually they did, and it kept going for a long time
David: Oh yeah, actually they did, and it kept going for a long time
because it was a small little nitch magazine. But, yeah, Jim Warren
because it was a small little niche magazine. But, yeah, Jim Warren
would be an interesting guy, very interesting guy early on. I don't
would be an interesting guy, very interesting guy, early on. I don't
know about Albert because you say he published more tabloid
know about Albrecht because you say he published more tabloid
newspapers. I don't know if they ever really published any magazine
newspapers. I don't know if they ever really published any magazine
size thing or not. Probably not, but it would give me a totally
size thing or not. Probably not, but it would give me a totally
different perspective because they are coming from the west coast,
different perspective because they're coming from the west coast,
looser or whatever.
looser, or whatever.
Kevin: That sounded pretty loose.
Kevin: That sounded pretty loose.
David: Yeah nothing compared to that.
David: Yeah nothing compared to that.
Betsy: I think he was sort of in rebellion when he started working at
Betsy: I think he was sort of in rebellion when he started working full time
Creative Computing because he was coming off of AT&T where he had to
at Creative Computing because he was coming off of AT&T where he had
wear a suit to work every day. So the first thing he did was burn
to wear a suit to work every day. So the first thing he did was burn
his suits and wear t-shirt and jeans way before anybody was doing
his suits and wear t-shirt and jeans way before anybody was doing
that.
that.
David: I went extremely in the other direction, yeah I did, but who else
David: I went extremely in the other direction, yeah I did, but who else
real early. Personal computing which I think David Barnell somehow
real early. Personal Computing, which I think David Barnell somehow
involved in it at some point in there. Because they moved from the
involved in it at some point in there. Because they moved from the
west coast to New Jersey, they were bought by...who was that? It
west coast to New Jersey, and they were bought by... who was that? It
was mostly a company that published things like hardware age and
was mostly a company that published things like hardware age and
advertiser-driven magazines. What was the name?
advertiser-driven magazines. What was the name?
David: Oh, gosh. Begins with an 'H'.
David: Oh, gosh. Begins with an 'H'.
Betsy: Halshep
Betsy: Halshep?
David: No. Anyway, when they brought personal computing...I think Barnell
David: No. Anyway, when they brought Personal Computing... I think Barnell
maybe even started it, and then they moved it to New Jersey, and
maybe even started it, and then they moved it to New Jersey, and
then David said "I'm not going to New Jersey. I'm a west coast
then David said "I'm not going to New Jersey. I'm a west coast
totally advertiser driven. A press release is a product review, as
totally advertiser driven. A press release is a product review, as
far as they were concerned.
far as they were concerned.
They had some interesting stuff. They were a competitor only in
They had some interesting stuff. They were a competitor only in
name, but also because they got the advertising. "I think I'm going
name, but also because they got the advertising. "I think I'm going
to advertise." "Oh! We're going to publish a wonderful review! Give
to advertise"... "Oh! We're going to publish a wonderful review! Give
it to us." And so they were early, and they made money. There were
it to us." And so they were early, and they made money.
There were a bunch of flash-in-the-pan magazines that lasted 2 or 3
or maybe 6 ssues, but nobody...
Kevin: But only one in seven made it, so...
Kevin: But only one in seven made it, so...
David: That's right, exactly. I can't remember the name of some of these
David: That's right, exactly. I can't remember the name of some of these
ones, but there was a very successful big magazine that published
ones, but there was a very successful big magazine that published
all Apple...reviews of Apple stuff. What was that one? Apple by
all Apple... reviews of Apple stuff. What was that one? Apple by
themselves spawned I'd guess half a dozen magazines.
themselves spawned I'd guess half a dozen magazines.
Kevin: Inquest, and Insider, and Apple...a bunch of others there.
Kevin: There was A+, and Insider, and Apple... a bunch of others.
David: Right. Actually, there's one that I can't think of the name of, it
David: Right. Actually, there's one that I can't think of the name of, it
turned out, it was bigger and thicker and creative. They were
turned out, it was bigger and thicker and creative. They were
publishing a lot of stuff, but again, it would all be positive and
publishing a lot of stuff, but again, it would all be positive and
so they really killed us on getting advertising. We had been a
so they really killed us on getting advertising. We had been a leading
publisher of Apple material for a while. Then all these others came
publisher of Apple material for a while. Then all these others came
along. That one, whatever it was, was really took a lot of
along. That one, whatever it was, was really took a lot of
advertising from us. I'll think about it.
advertising from us. I'll think about it.
[not in recording]
Kevin: You'll remember.
Kevin: You'll remember.
David: I'll remember some of this. When it all settled out, you came back
David: I'll remember some of this.
[back to recording]
David: When it all settled out, you came back down to eight or nine,
but the ones we're talking about...
Kevin: Well, at one point there was 200.
Kevin: Well, at one point there was 200.